RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
VR6 Eug said:
EV are not the full answer because the battery making process isn't green at all, Open cast mines are poisoning the land and the toxic lakes they created for Lithium processing kill everything, then there is shipping and road transport costs to the atmosphere from diesel pollution....And the important one is, No country can support a fully electric EV network because no country makes enough power by a considerable amount to run cars and houses.
While I agree EVs are not the full answer (and are definitely subject to heavy greenwashing) there is still a need to examine the negative impact of EV production vs ICE production AND the petroleum refining industry. Petrol/Diesel production involves particulate matter such as nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and sulfur dioxide (SO2). All this before it’s pumped into a tanker and sailed and then trucked around the world. So as much as I don’t want to live next to a Lithium mine, nor do I wish to live in a community near a petrochemical plant! I don’t have the answer, but I find it interesting how one relatively nascent industry (EV battery industry) can be scrutinised so heavily, while a much mature industry (petroleum) isn’t mentioned until we see oil spillages and sea birds caked in thick sludge on the news.As for electricity production, yes it’s not clean but we have the technology to make it clean. Unfortunately politics and commerce get in the way somewhat. The same goes for capacity, it’s scaleable to demand. We might all read about black outs in the Daily Mail, but then that’s the Daily Mail….My hope is that battery tech improves in terms of resources required, or hydrogen becomes viable…
Terminator X said:
But but the EV owners told us this was impossible, an EV only future they said.
TX.
TX.
It was me, a non-EV owner, who told you it was not possible to do this for the majority of passenger cars. I told you that EVs need to be the solution for the vast majority of cars to achieve the 2050 decarbonisation objectives set for this sector.
Apart from that, you nailed it.
sixor8 said:
The fact the hybrids are available until 2035 seems to be ignored by so many too. At least 3 posters have mentioned 2030 as EVs only, and been corrected. 
It's because the popular media has chosen 2030 as it will terrify and enrage more people so get more clicks. All PHers know it's 2035 as we all like cars so pay attention to this stuff and certainly don't fall for the headlines meant for retired folk who need their daily fear or rage fix. We also know that the U.K. has not set this date in law and the reason for this.
We've left it open so it can slip in key areas if required to keep all economic contributors mobile.
Conversely, while some of the EU member states are against theirs due to knowing their population can't be prepared in time due to economic reasons, German automotive want it so as to firstly sell some high end cars to crazy guys post 2035 but also to economically underpin their forays into harvesting Chilean wind energy. This now has more weight due to the disaster of realising their affordable energy comes from Russia and they have to build their cheaper EVs in China.
bobo79 said:
I wish people understood what synthetic fuels were for. And how expensive they are going to be.
They are not going to provide a future for any kind of mass market ICE, they just aren't. Best case they are always going to be directly linked to the cose of electricty. As electricity gets more expensive, so will synthetic fuels. That doesn't mean they have no place - they do - but primarily for stuff like air craft.
And for rich guys that want to keep their classic GT2RS running.
But for 'normal' car enthusiasts wanting to buy modern ICE cars? No way.
You can't be so certain given the future can't be predicted. If battery tech is anticipating a miracle then why not synth fuel too.They are not going to provide a future for any kind of mass market ICE, they just aren't. Best case they are always going to be directly linked to the cose of electricty. As electricity gets more expensive, so will synthetic fuels. That doesn't mean they have no place - they do - but primarily for stuff like air craft.
And for rich guys that want to keep their classic GT2RS running.
But for 'normal' car enthusiasts wanting to buy modern ICE cars? No way.
TX.
Earthdweller said:
A week is a long time in politics … 12 years is a millennia
I’ll lay odds the ban will NEVER happen
I’ll lay odds the ban will NEVER happen
There is possibly some truth in this, but only because it might not be needed if most manufacturers have already packed it in for their non-electric drivetrains by then.
BlackandWhite said:
kambites said:
Anyone would think that the German manufacturers had got hopelessly left behind with regards to electrification or something... 
One word. Taycan. Look it up. Leading the field and still questioning the wisdom of should ring alarm bells.Archie2050 said:
Terminator X said:
You can't be so certain given the future can't be predicted. If battery tech is anticipating a miracle then why not synth fuel too.
TX.
Battery tech is already here and USABLE without a Miracle unlike synthetic fuels TX.
TX.
shantybeater said:
We may not all be Porsche lovers (I see the often negative posts towards the brand), but their efforts to keep fossil fuel cars on the road via carbon neutral alternatives is admirable and should be appreciated by any petrol head
Pistonheads appears to be increasingly populated by people who I would never describe as petrol heads.MB140 said:
Harry’s Garage (YouTube Channel) has just said he’s going to run his entire fleet (20 ish cars) on synthetic fuels.
I’m sure he quite a price of around £6 per litre. Yes you red that right £6 per litre.
Yeah, saw that. But those are biofuels made from agricultural waste, not e-fuels made from electricity, and the market will determine their price. Which will be a nice earner when you can sell stuff made from corn stalks for what other people are selling stuff made from green electricity, but not enough to lower the price. I’m sure he quite a price of around £6 per litre. Yes you red that right £6 per litre.
DonkeyApple said:
sixor8 said:
The fact the hybrids are available until 2035 seems to be ignored by so many too. At least 3 posters have mentioned 2030 as EVs only, and been corrected.
It's because the popular media has chosen 2030 as it will terrify and enrage more people so get more clicks. All PHers know it's 2035 as we all like cars so pay attention to this stuff and certainly don't fall for the headlines meant for retired folk who need their daily fear or rage fix. We also know that the U.K. has not set this date in law and the reason for this.
We've left it open so it can slip in key areas if required to keep all economic contributors mobile.
Conversely, while some of the EU member states are against theirs due to knowing their population can't be prepared in time due to economic reasons, German automotive want it so as to firstly sell some high end cars to crazy guys post 2035 but also to economically underpin their forays into harvesting Chilean wind energy. This now has more weight due to the disaster of realising their affordable energy comes from Russia and they have to build their cheaper EVs in China.
Give the rate at which we purchase new cars, it’ll be a long time before IcE cars are actually off the road. That’s not even factoring in the fuel sales for all the other types of vehicle - vans, trucks etc
Synthetic fuels are a potential solution for 2050 and beyond.
pheonix478 said:
shantybeater said:
We may not all be Porsche lovers (I see the often negative posts towards the brand), but their efforts to keep fossil fuel cars on the road via carbon neutral alternatives is admirable and should be appreciated by any petrol head
Pistonheads appears to be increasingly populated by people who I would never describe as petrol heads.Personally, I've zero interest in some over priced tramp juice and will stick to using proper petrol for the next 20 years for my cars and chilling.
Meanwhile, "stupid" Britain continues down the road to bankruptcy and disaster ! It is obvious to anyone with half a brain or more that 2030 was always going to be impossible to meet but, from our wonderful government, comes there nothing. What a bunch of clowns ! Is this the most useless government in living memory ?
GT9 said:
The issue is one of end-to-end efficiency for the renewable electricity route.
Using the same electricity to power an electric car gets you something like 5 times further down the road, possibly even more.
How do you square that circle for something like this being available to the 'the masses'?
Conceptually, very simple.Using the same electricity to power an electric car gets you something like 5 times further down the road, possibly even more.
How do you square that circle for something like this being available to the 'the masses'?
The idea would be along the lines of, say, solar power in a Gulf state. No shortage of that. Any electricity generated isn't being subtracted from the grid half way across the world.
Cost is an issue. Ample renewable power is not. Huge swathes of arid, more or less dead land with more or less round the year solar energy available in huge quantities. It's actually a pretty reasonable answer to some of the world's power problems.
I would think it's the only way you're going to get aviation carbon neutral any time soon.
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