Before all the venues disappear...

Before all the venues disappear...

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Discussion

BananaFama

3,104 posts

66 months

Tuesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
Combe spent a lot of time back in the day garnering local support, plus there are vast populations nearby with nothing else close.
What are these "vast populations " ?

Bristol ,Swindon ,Gloucester ,Cheltenham ,cities of South Wales ,none of them "vast"

Thundersports

588 posts

132 months

Wednesday
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Seems i've stirred up a fair difference of opinion. I wholly agree the investment JP has made at his circuit is very welcome and has made a world of difference to the venues. My main gripe with the cost is your basically going to see in Football terms a amateur game on the Hackney Marshes where the meetings are run for the benefit of the competitors. The Circuit has already had their money with the hire of the venue so then charging spectators an unreasonable amount in my opinion is short sighted. With the decline of Motor sport at Club level over the past 30 years we should be encouraging as many people as possible through the gates. Remember the Sun free days for collecting tokens? John Webb at his marketing best 20k-25k through the gates for a clubbie, with a Truck or Touring Car circulating at lunchtime to promote forthcoming meetings along with Jonesy interacting with the crowd whilst reminding them they can have ago with the racing school.
For all the club competitors reading this I like many appreciate your time and money spent bringing your cars out.

coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

Wednesday
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Sebring440 said:
Robmarriott said:
The access at Santa Pod allows you to get up close to every single car. I’ve been to various different circuits for BTCC and you can’t do that with the main attraction,
You've only got to ask.

Most BTCC teams are very mindful and supportive of their fan base and are happy to show peeps around the cars.
Things must have changed since my mate took a picture of a BTCC Astra engine and was pounced on by a burly mechanic demanding that the picture be deleted . Who knew an Astra engine could be so interesting?

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Wednesday
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I would bet to differ

Swindon, used to house a huge car plant, Bristol is a bloody huge place, as are Glouscester and Cheltenham, Bath, all within fairly close distance to Combe.

Not everyone lives in giant cities chap, so being able to tap into cities and towns is a clever way of increasing your footfall, a lot of circuits do not manage it despite being very close to big cities and towns

And I agree with Thundersport, clubbies should be either free or charity linked, there is no incentive for anyone to pay to go and watch one these days to watch a load of one make garbage droning around. Yes the racing might be good, but the places do not want you there, you feel it and know it. I would care not a jot if I was racing, you ave pad vastly over inflated entry fees so are welcome to it. But fans, cmon, one man and his dog at least you might get three men and their kids if you made it free.

it is endemic of the way circuits are run and a sad reflection on how motorsport is run in this country at the higher levels. And I include the MSA, nothing to do with taking part, everything to do with money and making as much of it from people as you can.

Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

Wednesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
I would bet to differ

Swindon, used to house a huge car plant, Bristol is a bloody huge place, as are Glouscester and Cheltenham, Bath, all within fairly close distance to Combe.

Not everyone lives in giant cities chap, so being able to tap into cities and towns is a clever way of increasing your footfall, a lot of circuits do not manage it despite being very close to big cities and towns

And I agree with Thundersport, clubbies should be either free or charity linked, there is no incentive for anyone to pay to go and watch one these days to watch a load of one make garbage droning around. Yes the racing might be good, but the places do not want you there, you feel it and know it. I would care not a jot if I was racing, you ave pad vastly over inflated entry fees so are welcome to it. But fans, cmon, one man and his dog at least you might get three men and their kids if you made it free.

it is endemic of the way circuits are run and a sad reflection on how motorsport is run in this country at the higher levels. And I include the MSA, nothing to do with taking part, everything to do with money and making as much of it from people as you can.
Perhaps you can expand on that please, explain the vastly over inflated entry fees.

With your "vast" insight perhaps you can break that down for us.

Or is it just another statement of yours, that you make without actually understanding how events are financed and run.

Edited by Drumroll on Wednesday 22 March 13:48

liner33

10,369 posts

189 months

Wednesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
I used to be able to go up there on Main Event Friday evening for a tenner less than 20 years ago, that is not long for a massive increase.
Really , I stopped racing about 20 years ago and it was more even back then

Back in 2000 it was £15 for a day ticket at Avon Park !

http://www.eurodragster.com/news/features/blogs/jo...


andy97

4,568 posts

209 months

Wednesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
……., there is no incentive for anyone to pay to go and watch one these days to watch a load of one make garbage droning around. Yes the racing might be good, but the places do not want you there, you feel it and know it. I would care not a jot if I was racing, you ave pad vastly over inflated entry fees so are welcome to it. But fans, cmon, one man and his dog at least you might get three men and their kids if you made it free.
Another stupid and inaccurate post.

There is plenty of club racing that is not one make. The vast majority of it, in fact.

On the one hand you make comments about “one make garbage droning around” and then say “The racing might be good but….”
Which is it?
Don’t you like to watch cars dicing with each other?
As for “vastly over inflated entry fees”, they are not cheap I know (but then neither is a week skiing etc etc) and I really wish they were cheaper, but we pay what it costs. And unlike you, I have a pretty good idea what it costs. I have posted on here before the example of a club hiring Rockingham approx 10-12 years ago for a 2 day meeting. Pretty good grids throughout but maybe 2-3 cars down on average over every grid. It cost £78k to put the meeting on and the entrance fees brought in £75k. Costs won’t have got any cheaper.

coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

Wednesday
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There is a lot of regional variation in attendance, for reasons unconnected with proximity of high density populations. I get around a fair bit and my unscientific findings are(based primarily on CSCC, HSCC ,VSCC but also GT and other modern stuff )

Knockhill - small-ish but keen crowd
Croft - three men and a dog for most things except BTCC and Nostalgia . And Time Attack , if that is your thing - it isn't mine
Cadwell - reasonable number of keen regulars
Donington - like a bloody ghost town
Oulton Park - a very loyal and numerous bunch of locals , many of them even older than me
Mallory - not bad at all, and far better than Donington
Silverstone - I was amazed at the number for Pomeroy Trophy and CSCC the other week . I normally find it deserted except for big stuff
Brands - good friendly local crowd
Thruxton - hardcore fans only
Anglesey - more than I expected , mainly local ; very friendly

Goodwood - after Cadwell, my favourite. In a class of its own - pricey but wonderful . And big numbers obviously

Never been to Castle Combe or Lydden Hill , been once to Snetterton since my first trip as a kid in 1966. Won't rush back


LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Wednesday
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There is no need to be rude you rather arrogant chap.

I post what I do I find club racing completely and utterly dull, I expect you do it which is why you have a vested interest fair play to you, do not expect anyone other than friends and family to go and watch

I do not find close dicing that interesting to watch no, not unless I can see the majority of the track, which in most cases in the UK you cannot. I did it for a while and quickly found other stuff far more interesting. Also a lot of variety left club racing in my opinion, you see that word, it means MY opinion, I have been to watch the odd clubbie since and been utterly bored, hence my agreement with Thundersports. A lot of modern stuff is dull as dishwater unless you know someone racing or are driving, do not try and tell me a load of 3 cylinder hatchbacks droning around is fun to watch, for about 5 minutes maybe but not that much longer.

we each like certain things, and for me circuit racing has long been only about the competitors, and fair enough, so why charge people to watch. That means all sorts of extra costs for the venue for no reason other than health and safety. Pointless.

I could not give the slightest toss about costs, that is the clubs problem, I am a fan who watches and for me club racing is dull. I tried it and it was, sorry to be plain, but that is it, and the point about racing being good was for the drivers not the fans, if you get exciting watching 30 MX5s racing closely and bashing into each other, fine, not me chap sorry, needs to be a damn sight more interesting.

I was lucky to see stuff like Formula Libre, Special Saloons, Slick 50, local FF1600 and national, F3 when it was worth seeing, production saloons, Thundersaloons Special GT these were all series with variety in cars and drivers and huge grids, those days are gone, yet circuits still expect punters to run up when there is no reason to. Some tracks it works, some it is rather pointless.

hence why people dont go lol


Edited by LukeBrown66 on Wednesday 22 March 19:09

andy97

4,568 posts

209 months

Wednesday
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coppice said:
There is a lot of regional variation in attendance, for reasons unconnected with proximity of high density populations. I get around a fair bit and my unscientific findings are(based primarily on CSCC, HSCC ,VSCC but also GT and other modern stuff )

Knockhill - small-ish but keen crowd
Croft - three men and a dog for most things except BTCC and Nostalgia . And Time Attack , if that is your thing - it isn't mine
Cadwell - reasonable number of keen regulars
Donington - like a bloody ghost town
Oulton Park - a very loyal and numerous bunch of locals , many of them even older than me
Mallory - not bad at all, and far better than Donington
Silverstone - I was amazed at the number for Pomeroy Trophy and CSCC the other week . I normally find it deserted except for big stuff
Brands - good friendly local crowd
Thruxton - hardcore fans only
Anglesey - more than I expected , mainly local ; very friendly

Goodwood - after Cadwell, my favourite. In a class of its own - pricey but wonderful . And big numbers obviously

Never been to Castle Combe or Lydden Hill , been once to Snetterton since my first trip as a kid in 1966. Won't rush back

The funny thing is that the crowds at LukeBrown66’s much detested circuit rallies are very good, even at Donington.

pablo

17,444 posts

260 months

Wednesday
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Luke talks bks shocker…

Combe were getting mugged by the BRSCC in the old days, broke away and formed the CCRC and have become one of the best circuits in the country. Still less than £20 to get in and that’s about 8 hours track activity. Saloons, hot hatches, GTs and FFords plus whoever else wants to come and play. They still need to do a few things to help the spectators but they get about 5,000 through the gates and that’s plenty, it can be double that if it’s a nice day and something like TCR are visiting. Viewing is ace, especially on that banking before The Esses.

The marshal training day this year had big numbers because they have built a really good community atmosphere that values your time and enthusiasm.

TLDR. Not all club circuits are the same.

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Wednesday
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I was not talking about circuit rallies, funny how some people try and put words in your mouth. I spent the day for half the price at a proper rally at weston Park, not a sprint where if you go on the grass Palmer takes your money!!


And bless Piblo, funny how the same people troll about isn't it.

I was never critical of Combe in the slightest so your point is what, or do you just enjoy being abusive with no contest other than being errrr abusive.

A lot of venues make zero effort to garner fans, Combe has and deserve immense credit for doing so.


Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

Wednesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
There is no need to be rude you rather arrogant chap.

I post what I do I find club racing completely and utterly dull, I expect you do it which is why you have a vested interest fair play to you, do not expect anyone other than friends and family to go and watch

I do not find close dicing that interesting to watch no, not unless I can see the majority of the track, which in most cases in the UK you cannot. I did it for a while and quickly found other stuff far more interesting. Also a lot of variety left club racing in my opinion, you see that word, it means MY opinion, I have been to watch the odd clubbie since and been utterly bored, hence my agreement with Thundersports. A lot of modern stuff is dull as dishwater unless you know someone racing or are driving, do not try and tell me a load of 3 cylinder hatchbacks droning around is fun to watch, for about 5 minutes maybe but not that much longer.

we each like certain things, and for me circuit racing has long been only about the competitors, and fair enough, so why charge people to watch. That means all sorts of extra costs for the venue for no reason other than health and safety. Pointless.

I could not give the slightest toss about costs, that is the clubs problem, I am a fan who watches and for me club racing is dull. I tried it and it was, sorry to be plain, but that is it, and the point about racing being good was for the drivers not the fans, if you get exciting watching 30 MX5s racing closely and bashing into each other, fine, not me chap sorry, needs to be a damn sight more interesting.

I was lucky to see stuff like Formula Libre, Special Saloons, Slick 50, local FF1600 and national, F3 when it was worth seeing, production saloons, Thundersaloons Special GT these were all series with variety in cars and drivers and huge grids, those days are gone, yet circuits still expect punters to run up when there is no reason to. Some tracks it works, some it is rather pointless.

hence why people dont go lol


Edited by LukeBrown66 on Wednesday 22 March 19:09
I don't disagree Slick 50's, FF1600. F3's etc made good racing, but things move on. For example if Slick 50 was to come back with current cars what variation would there really be in the field? It would have very little to do with MSUK. competitors or anything else it just the way modern cars are. Having said that, the younger audience would relate to them as they look like the cars they drive. Same with FF1600 they had to change when it became clear the "kent" 1600 was no longer going to be available. So like most things it is called evolution, whilst it is clear you don't like the fact that motorsport evolves, it has to for many reasons.

Why people don't go as much as they used to complex. There are more things for people to go to for a start. But one big thing is a lot of people aren't really into cars (like we were) I look at my daughters friends and non of them are interested in cars. The only person who made anything of my daughter and me turning up to her wedding in a classic Rolls Royce was me. When I was working hardly anyone was interested in cars. Talk of F1 and BTCC was mainly done to include me in a conversation (knowing I have no interest in football)

I fail to see how you say you don't find close racing interesting unless you can see the majority of the track, perhaps you can explain that one because UK tracks haven't changed that much that you could see more of the track in "your day" than you can now.



Dynion Araf Uchaf

3,882 posts

210 months

Yesterday (06:42)
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Drumroll said:
I

I fail to see how you say you don't find close racing interesting unless you can see the majority of the track, perhaps you can explain that one because UK tracks haven't changed that much that you could see more of the track in "your day" than you can now.
The trees were shorter and his eyesight better back in the 50s

Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

Yesterday (07:01)
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Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Drumroll said:
I

I fail to see how you say you don't find close racing interesting unless you can see the majority of the track, perhaps you can explain that one because UK tracks haven't changed that much that you could see more of the track in "your day" than you can now.
The trees were shorter and his eyesight better back in the 50s
I wondered if he was looking through rose tinted glasses myself. But I am sure he will be along to explain as only he can.

coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

Yesterday (07:36)
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Lighten up Luke . If you look for it , there is plenty of good stuff around that isn't spec formulae . I share your view that the closeness of racing isn't the be all and end all , and I can tire of watching 20 identical cars drone round a second apart . But enough of F 4 , look at series like Northern Saloons and Sports Cars , where you can get a Elise fighting an Aussie V8 Supercar , a retired BTCC car and a bike engined Westfield . The CSCC features massive grids and great racing for everything from Cortinas to modern-ish turbo hatches and 911s.

Not everything in the garden is rosy - the loss of British F3 remains a tragedy for what was once the fourth or fifth most important single seater series in the world . And while we still get FF1600 , simply the best single seater series ever for pure racing , it is a shadow of what it was.

Having watched club racing since the sixties , of course it has changed , but not all for the worse . Silverstone and Donington apart ,I find the tracks are still a nice place to spend a day and some - like Oulton - have improved from the scruffy basket cases they'd become pre MSV . It is fashionable to sneer at J Palmer, but he has rescued British circuits and his operation is streets ahead of the amateur hour management of some other circuits .

Jim Spencer

141 posts

209 months

Yesterday (08:23)
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coppice said:
Having watched club racing since the sixties , of course it has changed , but not all for the worse . Silverstone and Donington apart ,I find the tracks are still a nice place to spend a day and some - like Oulton - have improved from the scruffy basket cases they'd become pre MSV . It is fashionable to sneer at J Palmer, but he has rescued British circuits and his operation is streets ahead of the amateur hour management of some other circuits .
10/10 for that! Been reading this thread, wondering if it was just me, but now I know it's not!

Having been a regular at Oulton since before I could walk, I am certain the crowd at an average clubby is larger than it used to be 'back in the day' you've only got to look at the fans facebook thread where they post the 'historic' pictures to confirm ones thoughts. And as for what Mr Palmer has done to the place, and the other MSV circuits, coupled with his approach of throwing the doors open for trackdays and similar ( literally going as far as advertising the latter, locally, in the school hols as somewhere to bring the kids for a free day out,) is really good to see. While there's most certainly the ethos of 'profit' (bring the kids when its free, come back and pay at the weekend!) it's done by making the circuits a welcoming place to be, given the sheer choice people have to spend their spare time and money, that should be welcomed by all, as without that view (and the other, more switched on, circuit owners doing the same thing) then our circuits would be in a mess.

It might be me.. but I do detect the signs of that ethos filtering through at Donington too.. if somehow it can be contagious and filter circa 60 miles down the M1.. that'd be better still!

liner33

10,369 posts

189 months

Yesterday (10:12)
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LukeBrown66 said:
A lot of venues make zero effort to garner fans, Combe has and deserve immense credit for doing so.
Coombe has got a lot of criticism from those that attend its action days due to a 50% increase in entry price this year to £30

coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

Yesterday (10:32)
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I am favourably disposed to MSV for another reason too- some years ago I had a very serious back condition which restricted my mobility to a very short range . MSV could not have been more helpful in ensuring accessibility for me . BARC ? I actually threatened them with a Disability Discrimination claim after effectively being refused entry and told to park in a 'disabled car park' , conveniently located a long walk (for me, and anyone else with mobility issues ) from the track . Only the very helpful MSA steward saved the day. My email to the BARC secretary remains unanswered ...

andy97

4,568 posts

209 months

Yesterday (10:45)
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LukeBrown66 said:
I was not talking about circuit rallies, funny how some people try and put words in your mouth. I spent the day for half the price at a proper rally at weston Park, not a sprint where if you go on the grass Palmer takes your

A lot of venues make zero effort to garner fans, Combe has and deserve immense credit for doing so.
You were not referring to the “circuit rallies” this time, but have been critical of them in the past, and go on to be here. I was just pointing out that even at Donington they can get good crowds for a club rally when someone else suggested that Donington does not get good crowds. Fair enough you are not a fan of the circuit rallies, but please stop spouting inaccurate rubbish.
No one gets charged by Palmer for “going on the grass”.

You don’t want to pay to watch club racing, presumably because we are all just amateurs. Fair enough. But you will pay to watch similar amateurs rallying. Inconsistent!
(As it happens I tried to get an entry for Weston Park but it was over subscribed by double initially so I entered Donington instead. If I had got an entry you may have had to watch an amateur like me!)
You don’t like one make stuff, fair enough, but U.K. rallying has often been accused of being an “Escort one-make series”!
You think paying approx half price (of Donington entry) to watch the rallying at Weston Park is ok, where there are no permanent facilities, but don’t recognise that to have the facilities such as half decent toilets and cafes at the circuits you have to pay for that investment. Odd.

You praise Combe for making the effort to attract spectators but don’t appreciate that the MSV circuits are doing the same by providing the half decent facilities mentioned along with inviting car clubs to attend and providing season tickets etc. Even odder.

I, too, have paid to watch masses of club racing over 40 plus years, from F3 to GTs, to Special Saloons, to F Ford to Porsches to TVR Tuscans, to Thundersports, to Clubmans, to Monoposto to minis to historics to…….you get the idea. As I have said before, I have served on a national race club committee and I have competed in races and more recently, rallies. I think I understand some of the club motorsport scene pretty well. There are one make series and there may be more now than before, but out of (guesstimate) 100-120 plus separate club racing series in the U.K., how many are actually one make? 10% maybe?
There is still a huge variety of machinery racing every weekend.
You don’t like the club racing scene, and don’t want to pay the entrance fees, which is fair enough. But please stop spouting inaccurate, broad brush, rubbish.

Edited by andy97 on Thursday 23 March 10:49