Replacement for a Z4
Discussion
C70R said:
You say you're looking to trade down in value terms? If so, you're not going to get much 987 for significantly less than the Z4.
If you were on a budget of ~£7k and wanted something rare, that isn't a hot hatch but feels a bit 'special', I'd consider looking at the FWD Italians. A V6 Alfa GTV/GT or a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo can be had for that kind of cash, and fit the bill.
If neither of those float your boat, then you're starting to dig into more obscure stuff. Off the top of my head, having just played around with a not dissimilar budget:
- 350z. You'll get one of the earlier ones, but probably a decent one. Convertible looks are 'challenging', but they are good value.
- Chrysler Crossfire V6. I've never fitted worse in a car, but they are rare and vaguely interesting.
- Alfa Brera V6. I'm no fan of the design, but they are certainly rare and different.
If it were my £7k, and I wasn't buying a Z4, I'd be in a facelifted 986 2.7 Boxster.
Cheers, actually I was thinking maybe its time to lose my Alfa cherry!If you were on a budget of ~£7k and wanted something rare, that isn't a hot hatch but feels a bit 'special', I'd consider looking at the FWD Italians. A V6 Alfa GTV/GT or a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo can be had for that kind of cash, and fit the bill.
If neither of those float your boat, then you're starting to dig into more obscure stuff. Off the top of my head, having just played around with a not dissimilar budget:
- 350z. You'll get one of the earlier ones, but probably a decent one. Convertible looks are 'challenging', but they are good value.
- Chrysler Crossfire V6. I've never fitted worse in a car, but they are rare and vaguely interesting.
- Alfa Brera V6. I'm no fan of the design, but they are certainly rare and different.
If it were my £7k, and I wasn't buying a Z4, I'd be in a facelifted 986 2.7 Boxster.
My whole point in owning cars is to get through ownership experiences and enjoy them for what they are. I certainly haven't been near an Alfa before but have always admired from afar. I do like the GTVs a lot, in red, those wheels and that shiny V6!
coldel said:
plenty said:
Why can't we openly debate the pros and cons of the Z4? And I both like them and own one, and am open to how they can be improved as well as willing to share my experience having worked out how to overcome the flaws. I consider that a more useful contribution to this thread than suggesting there is no debate to be had.
Because its a thread about what car to get next, not a thread about the pros and cons of the outgoing Z4. If you really feel its an important topic you must debate, then start a thread called 'the pros and cons of a Z4 and how to improve them' and crack on. The pros and cons of a Z4 have 0% relevance to what car to get next. plenty said:
Ok. I consider it a shame that a small but relevant sidetrack that actually contains some potentially valuable info for Z4 owners makes you feel uncomfortable enough to shut it down, but it's your thread.
Not really. You said something, others replied, you disagreed with everything everyone said and continued. It wasn't going to be a short sidetrack. You then said why shouldn't the pros and cons of a Z4 be discussed on a thread about what car to buy next, which really has quite an obvious answer, because its a thread about any car BUT the Z4.
Not uncomfortable at all, I just want to see posts of actual value like C70Rs suggesting the Alfa option and so on and so forth.
A possible left field choice but how about a Mégane RS 250 / 265 / 275 (whichever falls into budget?)
I did consider this myself, and certainly they seem to be well regarded as a driver's car and although FWD they do seem to have something else about them compared with their contemporaries.
I did consider this myself, and certainly they seem to be well regarded as a driver's car and although FWD they do seem to have something else about them compared with their contemporaries.
TameRacingDriver said:
A possible left field choice but how about a Mégane RS 250 / 265 / 275 (whichever falls into budget?)
I did consider this myself, and certainly they seem to be well regarded as a driver's car and although FWD they do seem to have something else about them compared with their contemporaries.
Actually this is a really good shout...I hadnt considered them.I did consider this myself, and certainly they seem to be well regarded as a driver's car and although FWD they do seem to have something else about them compared with their contemporaries.
Looking at Autotrader now, the 250s seems to be in and around the 7k mark, 265s 9k plus. Are the 265s worth the extra few grand? Given you could probably add a mild map to the 250 power wise, do they have other improvements i.e handling?
coldel said:
Actually this is a really good shout...I hadnt considered them.
Looking at Autotrader now, the 250s seems to be in and around the 7k mark, 265s 9k plus. Are the 265s worth the extra few grand? Given you could probably add a mild map to the 250 power wise, do they have other improvements i.e handling?
I think they're all pretty closely matched from what I know. I'm sure a map could get you up to 300 bhp fairly easily. I think they're slightly underrated out of the box, with most producing +20bhp over the claimed figure. Looking at Autotrader now, the 250s seems to be in and around the 7k mark, 265s 9k plus. Are the 265s worth the extra few grand? Given you could probably add a mild map to the 250 power wise, do they have other improvements i.e handling?
I think in a way I actually prefer the look of the 250 over the 265, it just looks a bit more aggressive to my eyes.
Apparently the must have options are the cup pack, you may find it hard to sell a car without it even if the non cup versions are arguably a better match for the road. Recaros are also highly desirable. You may even be lucky and find a sunroof version too.
As far as I know quite robust and reliable too.
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
Z4C seems to fall in the very common slot of a car which could be "perfect", but falls just short of it and makes you ask, why? Why not go all the way?
It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's weird to say it, but I think the Z4C's strength for many is also its weakness for some.It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's a fabulous all-rounder. It's very easy to live with, it's easy to drive, it's easy and cheap to maintain, and it's actually pretty practical as 2-seaters go (hatch and a decent boot). If it were a Top Trump, it would score 7-8 out of 10 for pretty much everything. That's not damning with faint praise either - cars like this are VERY rare.
As a consequence of all of those things, it's not the most exciting drive and there's not much of a 'tuning scene' (as there might be for a Japanese car or more modern BMW).
It's horses for courses, I suppose. Some people like cars like this, others prefer flawed genius.
Edited by C70R on Friday 24th March 09:24
By the way, if your all-arounder point is in response to my well rounded point, by well rounded I meant a car which closes the circle.
It looks like a sports car, quacks like a sports car, it should drive like a sports car.
Edited by Shifter1 on Friday 24th March 11:14
Shifter1 said:
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
Z4C seems to fall in the very common slot of a car which could be "perfect", but falls just short of it and makes you ask, why? Why not go all the way?
It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's weird to say it, but I think the Z4C's strength for many is also its weakness for some.It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's a fabulous all-rounder. It's very easy to live with, it's easy to drive, it's easy and cheap to maintain, and it's actually pretty practical as 2-seaters go (hatch and a decent boot). If it were a Top Trump, it would score 7-8 out of 10 for pretty much everything. That's not damning with faint praise either - cars like this are VERY rare.
As a consequence of all of those things, it's not the most exciting drive and there's not much of a 'tuning scene' (as there might be for a Japanese car or more modern BMW).
It's horses for courses, I suppose. Some people like cars like this, others prefer flawed genius.
Edited by C70R on Friday 24th March 09:24
By the way, if your all-arounder point is in response to my well rounded point, by well rounded I meant a car which closes the circle.
It looks like a sports car, quacks like a sports car, it should drive like a sports car.
Edited by Shifter1 on Friday 24th March 11:14
The Boxster and the S2000 both drive significantly better than the Z4. BMW sold more Z4s than both of those combined during the E85/86 production years.
Turns out that BMW knew what the public actually wanted, rather than listening car forum people.
Edited by C70R on Friday 24th March 11:19
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
plenty said:
Shifter1 said:
Z4C seems to fall in the very common slot of a car which could be "perfect", but falls just short of it and makes you ask, why? Why not go all the way?
It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
Assuming you mean handling (because there's nothing wrong with the basic form factor or straight sixes), then I suspect it's because there wasn't enough time allocated to fine-tuning, or the project was rushed, or they needed the engineering resource elsewhere. Another few months in development would have yielded a very different car out of the box. A rare mistake by BMW who are usually quite thorough.It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
Fortunately a decent alignment and aftermarket suspension transforms the car. Although you're still stuck with the EPAS.
It's a closer competitor to things like the 350Z, S2000 and Cayman/Boxster. And if you were to give a choice of having one of those to live with as my only car, I'd take the Z4C in a heartbeat.
Sure, the others might do certain things better, and others might feel more special as a 'weekend' car. But none of them is a patch on the Z4 as a total ownership prospect.
Like I said, it's almost as if at some point BMW realized they couldn't compete with Mazda, because they were missing the point and just gave up and started steering their roadsters more and more away from the MX5, so they could say they are not failing, they just don't want to make a good sports car. Non sense. The cars are sized, styled and promoted as sports cars. I'm not here complaining a Jag XK doesn't drive like a sports car.
coldel said:
Cheers TRD seems you did a bit of homework on it!
Yes a few have recaros I can see in the adverts, pretty good looking seats for a hot hatch.
Well you know how much of a scatter brain I am when it comes to cars. I didn't rule anything out in my search, at least not immediately, the only surprise in the end was me going back to a car I've had before in almost exactly same configuration, which is not something I've been in the habit of doing, but hey it is what it is and I'm sure next year or thereafter there will be another big TRD thread of me looking for the next best thing, either when I get bored or when the engine detonates Yes a few have recaros I can see in the adverts, pretty good looking seats for a hot hatch.
TameRacingDriver said:
Well you know how much of a scatter brain I am when it comes to cars. I didn't rule anything out in my search, at least not immediately, the only surprise in the end was me going back to a car I've had before in almost exactly same configuration, which is not something I've been in the habit of doing, but hey it is what it is and I'm sure next year or thereafter there will be another big TRD thread of me looking for the next best thing, either when I get bored or when the engine detonates
I have to say, the allure of back seats is there. I have an 11 year old boy, and as much as me and him go out and enjoy two seater fun sometimes we by default as a family have to take the Qashqai and on the way think I could be doing this journey in something a bit more enjoyable...coldel said:
Shifter1 said:
Sure. There is also that.
But in the case of the Z4C this doesn't fit.
I don't think it needs more power. It wouldn't have really made that much difference on the budget to have sorted the suspension and not used the dreadful steering. To me it looks like oversight/incompetence.
And what were they protecting? BMW made no AMG GT equivalent, which is about the only type of car they could want to protect. M3 and the like are totally different types of cars and don't overlap.
The Z4M. They were getting too close to it in all honesty with the Z4C, as Mr Tidy says its 80% of the car for 50% of the money. But in the case of the Z4C this doesn't fit.
I don't think it needs more power. It wouldn't have really made that much difference on the budget to have sorted the suspension and not used the dreadful steering. To me it looks like oversight/incompetence.
And what were they protecting? BMW made no AMG GT equivalent, which is about the only type of car they could want to protect. M3 and the like are totally different types of cars and don't overlap.
See the steering thing, really isn't a thing for many owners. It doesn't bother me in the slightest because of the reason I bought the car and how I use it. It isn't dreadful at all if you use the car as a GT car rather than wanting something that bumps this way and that every second. It shouldn't be judged for not providing something it wasn't made to provide. Suspension likewise, is absolutely fine in the Sport spec. The only let down was the run flats, which when swapped out made a huge difference.
Ultimately, BMW would have had research on potential customer bases. Would have marketing lined up for particular segments. They build a car to suit that, not to suit an individual who wants a perfect sports car. Its about building what you think will sell, not building the perfect car that would appeal to a smaller group.
I think BMW just missed the point of a small, 2 seats, RWD, manual roaster/coupe. They had no product to protect. They either missed the point, were not competent to pull it off, or by the time the Z4 came around, had given up on trying, after the smackdown the Z3 got from the MX5. The second gen Z4 kind of reinforces the last point. It's an useless mess. But I would bet on the first point. Probably missed the point amidst all the giant corporation chaos. I think the MX5 had/has a pretty focused team, in comparison.
coldel said:
plenty said:
C70R said:
It wasn't a mistake at all. The Z4 was never designed or intended to be the last word in pin-sharp handling.
No, but it would be have been very simple for BMW to have delivered a car to better please the keen drivers, without compromising its ability as a cruiser. So it's entirely fair to describe it as a missed opportunity.C70R said:
Honestly, I've passengered in a Z4 with expensive coilovers, and they were just too hard for British B-roads. The standard suspension is over-damped (classic BMW), but seems to be much more at home on smoother, sweeping A-roads.
Coilovers with road-biased spring rates wouldn't have that issue.AS C70R said, the suspension is nicely set up for hitting A roads hard, which is where it should predominantly live, and in terms of handling and power easily overcomes an MX5 in those circumstances.
BMW had no need for another A-road master. They had plenty. The only point of the Z cars was to be a sports car. And they failed.
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
Z4C seems to fall in the very common slot of a car which could be "perfect", but falls just short of it and makes you ask, why? Why not go all the way?
It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's weird to say it, but I think the Z4C's strength for many is also its weakness for some.It has a lot going for it. It does a lot which other similar cars don't. But yet, it falls just short of delivering. Really a pity, as where we're going with EVs, a car like the Z4C, if it was well rounded and closed the circle, would be such a treasured one.
There is quite a bit of that going on. I have the impression that even more so with cars of the modern era. Either by design/engineering needs or by oversight. Almost as if there was a gentleman's agreement between carmakers, no to give us everything. We just can't have nice things.
It's a fabulous all-rounder. It's very easy to live with, it's easy to drive, it's easy and cheap to maintain, and it's actually pretty practical as 2-seaters go (hatch and a decent boot). If it were a Top Trump, it would score 7-8 out of 10 for pretty much everything. That's not damning with faint praise either - cars like this are VERY rare.
As a consequence of all of those things, it's not the most exciting drive and there's not much of a 'tuning scene' (as there might be for a Japanese car or more modern BMW).
It's horses for courses, I suppose. Some people like cars like this, others prefer flawed genius.
Edited by C70R on Friday 24th March 09:24
By the way, if your all-arounder point is in response to my well rounded point, by well rounded I meant a car which closes the circle.
It looks like a sports car, quacks like a sports car, it should drive like a sports car.
Edited by Shifter1 on Friday 24th March 11:14
The Boxster and the S2000 both drive significantly better than the Z4. BMW sold more Z4s than both of those combined during the E85/86 production years.
Turns out that BMW knew what the public actually wanted, rather than listening car forum people.
Edited by C70R on Friday 24th March 11:19
Edited by Shifter1 on Friday 24th March 11:40
coldel said:
I have to say, the allure of back seats is there. I have an 11 year old boy, and as much as me and him go out and enjoy two seater fun sometimes we by default as a family have to take the Qashqai and on the way think I could be doing this journey in something a bit more enjoyable...
Yeah I can certainly see that appeal from your perspective, I don't have kids so I didn't need the back seats although I have to say they might have come in handy occasionally. I reckon your little lad love hooning about with you in a RenaultSport
Well what I have found after two good shouts...the GTV and the Renault...
Seems that V6 GTVs are pretty rare not many about, I do like the look of them though. The Renault was very left field but I am really liking the idea of trying out something FWD.
I did actually test drive a few RCZ Rs before the Z4, I do like them for their uniqueness. So open to the idea of something French FWD and four seats (although the RCZ is stretching that a bit).
Seems that V6 GTVs are pretty rare not many about, I do like the look of them though. The Renault was very left field but I am really liking the idea of trying out something FWD.
I did actually test drive a few RCZ Rs before the Z4, I do like them for their uniqueness. So open to the idea of something French FWD and four seats (although the RCZ is stretching that a bit).
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