What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
I still maintain that the sidepods are a red herring.
Yes, they're different to everyone else's, but most of those 'in the know' who have discussed them have said that they don't really make a lot of difference.
I'm convinced the issue is in the floor. Mercedes are lacking downforce and have high drag.
So much downforce comes from the floor, with that downforce presumably carrying no drag as it's underneath the car, this must be where they're lacking?
I'd be surprised if they had the resources to have multiple concepts on the go at once. Budget cap dictates that is unlikely.
Kravitz speculated that they had a Plan B ready if the first iteration didn't work........it depends how deep-rooted their issues are.
They seem a bit lost at the moment. Like McLaren were in the early Honda years when they pinned all their issues on the engine; blaming one thing (porpoising in 2022) for their problems without looking at the wider picture.
I'm no aerodynamicist, in fact I don't think I can even spell aerodynamicist but looking at the Red Bull/Aston side pods they'll be channeling air towards the diffuser and the beam wings which probably increases efficiency of the floor.Yes, they're different to everyone else's, but most of those 'in the know' who have discussed them have said that they don't really make a lot of difference.
I'm convinced the issue is in the floor. Mercedes are lacking downforce and have high drag.
So much downforce comes from the floor, with that downforce presumably carrying no drag as it's underneath the car, this must be where they're lacking?
I'd be surprised if they had the resources to have multiple concepts on the go at once. Budget cap dictates that is unlikely.
Kravitz speculated that they had a Plan B ready if the first iteration didn't work........it depends how deep-rooted their issues are.
They seem a bit lost at the moment. Like McLaren were in the early Honda years when they pinned all their issues on the engine; blaming one thing (porpoising in 2022) for their problems without looking at the wider picture.
If you're pushing a large volume of air through a narrowing channel down the side of the car the air has to speed up (I think?) so they'll be energising the diffuser/beam wings more. Merc seem to have this higher up and don't have the extreme narrowing that others have.
I could be/probably am completely wrong though. That's why I'm not paid to design F1 cars
This generation of ground effect car produce a lot less of their downforce from the floor than the 80's cars did.
Just look at the size of the front and rear wings, in 82 many of the cars had no front wing at all and small rear wings.
The rules for these cars has severely limited what the floor does, and those limitations are not producing low drag solutions, they are still like a barn door with high deceleration just from coming off the throttle.
Just look at the size of the front and rear wings, in 82 many of the cars had no front wing at all and small rear wings.
The rules for these cars has severely limited what the floor does, and those limitations are not producing low drag solutions, they are still like a barn door with high deceleration just from coming off the throttle.
500TORQUES, Thanks for coming back on my question about CoG. The car as it is does seem to have a jetpack / scooba tanks on its back.
FourWheelDrift said:
This year's car is still wearing last seasons dress due to a late change in design direction, meanwhile the 2023 Spring collection is delayed as it's still being sewn up and will appear on the Azerbaijan catwalk.
This is the kind of thing I am speculating about too. I feel like Hamilton would appreciate the metaphor Would certainly be interesting to see behind the scenes at MB at the moment in terms of general morale / motivation etc.
There will be plenty of people there who'd previously never not won, and are now facing the possibility of a second year without much champagne, and feasibly even being 4th?!
Totally agree it's no mean feat to keep a team on top for many years, but I do think this will be a much bigger test for Toto than the utter domination Merc had from 2014 onwards.
There will be plenty of people there who'd previously never not won, and are now facing the possibility of a second year without much champagne, and feasibly even being 4th?!
Totally agree it's no mean feat to keep a team on top for many years, but I do think this will be a much bigger test for Toto than the utter domination Merc had from 2014 onwards.
I said in 2022 that 2023 is a key year for Mercedes.
Either 2022 was a one year blip or it was the start of the slide into the cyclical nature of F1 which will see them without much success for a while.
Looks like it wasn't a blip. The key now is can they re-group and get themselves together for the new engine regs in 2026.
Either 2022 was a one year blip or it was the start of the slide into the cyclical nature of F1 which will see them without much success for a while.
Looks like it wasn't a blip. The key now is can they re-group and get themselves together for the new engine regs in 2026.
GiantCardboardPlato said:
The deficit (for all the teams) - if I had to guess at an explanation - is related to floor edge sealing techniques.
Red bull, who learnt how to do it under the previous regulations running high rake set ups, are masters of aerodynamically sealing the underfloor.
The floor is now much more powerful, and of course the better the seal against air coming in under the sides of the floor, (and/or the lower it is), the more downforce you will get, because there’ll be a bigger pressure difference above/below the floor.
By more effectively sealing the edge of the floor with airflow, red bulls floor provides greater and more consistent downforce as ride height changes (or rises). That gives the driver a more consistent level of downforce as speed changes and weight transfers under braking/cornering. That means more grip, lower peak loadings on tyres, less tyre wear, etc. etc.
Really good post. ThanksRed bull, who learnt how to do it under the previous regulations running high rake set ups, are masters of aerodynamically sealing the underfloor.
The floor is now much more powerful, and of course the better the seal against air coming in under the sides of the floor, (and/or the lower it is), the more downforce you will get, because there’ll be a bigger pressure difference above/below the floor.
By more effectively sealing the edge of the floor with airflow, red bulls floor provides greater and more consistent downforce as ride height changes (or rises). That gives the driver a more consistent level of downforce as speed changes and weight transfers under braking/cornering. That means more grip, lower peak loadings on tyres, less tyre wear, etc. etc.
I do wonder whether they would consider spending well in excess of the cost cap, being fully aware that they will be fined heavily or even excluded from this years championship. If they don’t come up with a new design quick, they could be in danger of being midfield throughout the whole cycle of these regulations. So until 2026 at the earliest. It may be worth taking a heavy fine and the risk of losing this years points (as they are not winning the title this year anyway!)
Paul-M said:
I do wonder whether they would consider spending well in excess of the cost cap, being fully aware that they will be fined heavily or even excluded from this years championship. If they don’t come up with a new design quick, they could be in danger of being midfield throughout the whole cycle of these regulations. So until 2026 at the earliest. It may be worth taking a heavy fine and the risk of losing this years points (as they are not winning the title this year anyway!)
I wondered this. They saw what punishment RB got.dunc_sx said:
Toto said during testing they had different side pods WIP and they would be introduced near the start of the season, this is probably what is going on.
I reckon they'll copy RB / AM, they'd be nuts not to.
Dunc.
What he said in testing is the same as the 3 tenths he mentioned to Ted. It won't be enough.I reckon they'll copy RB / AM, they'd be nuts not to.
Dunc.
Paul-M said:
I do wonder whether they would consider spending well in excess of the cost cap, being fully aware that they will be fined heavily or even excluded from this years championship. If they don’t come up with a new design quick, they could be in danger of being midfield throughout the whole cycle of these regulations. So until 2026 at the earliest. It may be worth taking a heavy fine and the risk of losing this years points (as they are not winning the title this year anyway!)
I mentioned this earlier on page 2. Surely it has to crossing their mind. It’s worth the punishment to get them back on track. I mean if do it. Balls to the wall out n out to win. gt_12345 said:
Paul-M said:
I do wonder whether they would consider spending well in excess of the cost cap, being fully aware that they will be fined heavily or even excluded from this years championship. If they don’t come up with a new design quick, they could be in danger of being midfield throughout the whole cycle of these regulations. So until 2026 at the earliest. It may be worth taking a heavy fine and the risk of losing this years points (as they are not winning the title this year anyway!)
I wondered this. They saw what punishment RB got.gt_12345 said:
dunc_sx said:
Toto said during testing they had different side pods WIP and they would be introduced near the start of the season, this is probably what is going on.
I reckon they'll copy RB / AM, they'd be nuts not to.
Dunc.
What he said in testing is the same as the 3 tenths he mentioned to Ted. It won't be enough.I reckon they'll copy RB / AM, they'd be nuts not to.
Dunc.
thegreenhell said:
mat205125 said:
I hope his internal communications with the team are more motivating and positive than his outward projections to the media.
Indeed. They say you learn more about someone's true character when under pressure, and he's had it very easy until the last year. I found some of his comments after Sunday's race quite surprising. He's actually a bit of a drama queen.sparta6 said:
What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Wolff searching for a new Michael Schumacher to close down their performance gap
good luck with that Toto
I doubt that. Wolff searching for a new Michael Schumacher to close down their performance gap
good luck with that Toto
They had the actual Michael Schumacher for a while and all he managed to do was trundle around in 8th, getting whipped by his young team mate.
Derek Smith said:
3/10ths means little. He needs to change the car's use of tyres, how quickly it warms them up and how long he can get them to last. It's no good just going faster that they did at Bahrain. LH had to slow towards the end while the slower Ferrari stayed ahead. Fix that, and 2/10ths would be brilliant.
Most teams would gladly take the 0.3s - you'd be stupid not to - just as Ferrari would happy put up with porpoising when they were competitively upfront.I know what will be happening at Mercedes and from experience it's not going to be fun times
For the many people that joined a winning team and know very little about taking repeated beatings with the losing stick it's going to be a tough learning experience to know what it feels like to work twice as hard with little to show
F1 spits out more people than it can consume so if things don't improve many people at Mercedes will start asking themselves is it worth it
Then the brain drain starts and the rot sets in
For the many people that joined a winning team and know very little about taking repeated beatings with the losing stick it's going to be a tough learning experience to know what it feels like to work twice as hard with little to show
F1 spits out more people than it can consume so if things don't improve many people at Mercedes will start asking themselves is it worth it
Then the brain drain starts and the rot sets in
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff