RE: EU floats draft proposal in synthetic fuel tussle

RE: EU floats draft proposal in synthetic fuel tussle

Author
Discussion

dudleybloke

18,417 posts

173 months

Yesterday (16:58)
quotequote all
Isn't this the plot of an episode of The Outer Limits?

JJJ.

181 posts

2 months

Yesterday (16:59)
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GT9 said:
I was asking you what you think the cost of buying energy from a UK wind turbine to power an EV is likely to be compared to buying 5 or 10 times at much energy from a Chilean wind turbine.
No idea. Don't much care either. It's the end product that would interest me. You'd be far better off asking Porsche or their partners as they're the one's that made the investment and are producing the efuel.

otolith

51,672 posts

191 months

Yesterday (17:00)
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JJJ. said:
There must be some merit to it? I'm at a loss as why the likes of Porsche (Volkswagen) would bother. Time will tell no doubt.
DonkeyApple has a very cynical theory about that. Greenwashing, subsidy-seeking, and boondoggles, basically.

JJJ.

181 posts

2 months

Yesterday (17:03)
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otolith said:
DonkeyApple has a very cynical theory about that. Greenwashing, subsidy-seeking, and boondoggles, basically.
Ha,ha. Excellent. Who's knows, he could be right too. VW aren't adverse to trying to pull the wool over the authorities eyes.

GT9

4,310 posts

159 months

Yesterday (17:04)
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JJJ. said:
There must be some merit to it? I'm at a loss as why the likes of Porsche (Volkswagen) would bother. Time will tell no doubt.
Donkey Apple will probably weigh in at some point on this thread.
I think he explained that there is possibly some sort of corporate gaming at play here where carbon credits are earned for buying CO2.
The CO2 is then used to produce e-fuel which is sold as carbon-neutral.
The punters then burn it, releasing the CO2 back into the atmosphere.
Planet says WTF, but big company earns more money from fuel-burning tax-paying punters.

Gecko1978

8,098 posts

144 months

Yesterday (17:14)
quotequote all
If there are 7bn people in the world and about 3bn of them live in China and India ads we expecting them to also use EVs or E fuel or are we in the west just dying on the hill of CO2 net zero. I am not saying we should not aim for it I am just wondering if half the world will use EVs and in 2050 will the other half still be using ICE which are made domestically

GT9

4,310 posts

159 months

Yesterday (17:20)
quotequote all
JJJ. said:
GT9 said:
I was asking you what you think the cost of buying energy from a UK wind turbine to power an EV is likely to be compared to buying 5 or 10 times at much energy from a Chilean wind turbine.
No idea. Don't much care either. It's the end product that would interest me. You'd be far better off asking Porsche or their partners as they're the one's that made the investment and are producing the efuel.
OK, let's park it then, It was however you who opened up the question of wind power energy cost differentials between Chile and the UK.

JJJ.

181 posts

2 months

Yesterday (17:34)
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GT9 said:
It was however you who opened up the question of wind power energy cost differentials between Chile and the UK.
Did I really? Honestly, I haven't got any idea on Chile vs UK on wind cost. Who the fk has off the top of their head?
Jesus, may be I'm far smarter than I think.
Don't let me down now, show me where exactly I questioned the difference between Chile and the UK. Or for that matter made any reference to wind costs.
I'll be pleased if you can do, I might even feel a bit smug about it.

Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 23 March 17:59

911hope

1,339 posts

13 months

Yesterday (17:40)
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messyed said:
Reading all these comments, it seams that most on here want nothing to stop the ICE ban! Which is odd for a site called PISTON heads?
Why not join the author in hoping that we don't all have to spend our lives waiting for a charger, as i saw a few doing today.

There is plenty of time to ramp up E Fuel production and hopefully ramp down the mad rush to EV hell. And if its CO neutral whats the problem?

Come on.....Honestly we are supposed to be petrol heads here!!! ( e fuel Heads then )
It's only the physics and the chemistry that are problems. Herd to overcome with only wishful thinking.

911hope

1,339 posts

13 months

Yesterday (17:58)
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Freakuk said:
I assume you've all watched Harry's video on eFuels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUiHafCdvM

You can already buy drums of the stuff, it's not cheap, but it's available.
Waffly talk about ethanol based fuels, where he wrongly claims they are carbon neutral.

Doesn't mention cost or energy required to manufacture, including that for the ethanol, which is the ingredient.


Edited by 911hope on Thursday 23 March 18:03

otolith

51,672 posts

191 months

Yesterday (18:00)
quotequote all
Freakuk said:
I assume you've all watched Harry's video on eFuels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUiHafCdvM

You can already buy drums of the stuff, it's not cheap, but it's available.
If I remember rightly, that was biofuel made out of agricultural waste. Nice, but akin to saying we can feed the country with what we can grow in the nation's window boxes.

pheonix478

633 posts

25 months

Yesterday (18:03)
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Soupdragon65 said:
yes

the most logical use of synthetic fuels would be not to enable ICE vehicles to continue to be sold beyond 2035, but to make the carbon footprint of the legacy ICE fleet lower by mandating increasing blends of synthetic fuels into pump fuel. So little synthetic fuel is likely to be made that it would be more rational to prioritise its use by existing rather than new ICE vehicles.

All that will do is increase the price of petrol for those unwilling (or more likely unable) to switch to EV's
Makes sense except the amount of efuel we're ever going to make is going to be tiny so it won't be much of a blend, more a drop in each tank.

Arsecati

1,922 posts

104 months

Yesterday (18:15)
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911hope said:
Waffly talk about ethanol based fuels, where he wrongly claims they are carbon neutral.

Doesn't mention cost or energy required to manufacture, including that for the ethanol, which is the ingredient.


Edited by 911hope on Thursday 23 March 18:03
Don't wanna sound like a knob (hard for me, I know), but how much of the electricity currently produced to power all these EV's is actually carbon neutral?

Not against EV's - perfect solution to every day driving....... but it's still a distance away yet from the purity of unicorn farts and angel spit! wink

Soupdragon65

54 posts

Yesterday (18:29)
quotequote all
otolith said:
Freakuk said:
I assume you've all watched Harry's video on eFuels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUiHafCdvM

You can already buy drums of the stuff, it's not cheap, but it's available.
If I remember rightly, that was biofuel made out of agricultural waste. Nice, but akin to saying we can feed the country with what we can grow in the nation's window boxes.
And try asking Porsche where they get the CO2 for their Chilean synthetic fuel plant (hint: it's not from direct carbon capture from the atmosphere as was the originally stated intention.)

It's all a bit like one of those perpetual motion machines you can buy on eBay that have a battery hidden inside.

GT9

4,310 posts

159 months

Yesterday (18:29)
quotequote all
JJJ. said:
GT9 said:
It was however you who opened up the question of wind power energy cost differentials between Chile and the UK.
Did I really? Honestly, I haven't got any idea on Chile vs UK on wind cost. Who the fk has off the top of their head?
Jesus, may be I'm far smarter than I think.
Don't let me down now, show me where exactly I questioned the difference between Chile and the UK. Or for that matter made any reference to wind costs.
I'll be pleased if you can do, I might even feel a bit smug about it.

Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 23 March 17:59
An hour or so ago Otolith posted that e-fuel costs will be linked to the cost of electricity, and because it uses several times as much electricity (per vehicle mile) then it will cost several times more than using that electricity directly.

You then responded to that by saying that because the e-fuel is being produced in Chile where wind conditions are favourable, why would that relationship apply.

I tried, and obviously failed, to expand upon what Otolith posted, so I'm happy just to move on.

Regarding the carbon capture, the plant in Chile is currently shipping the CO2 in from Linde Industries by truck, as they haven't installed the direct-air capture machines yet.

It remains to be seen if they ever get around to doing that, or maybe, as others have pointed out, the CO2 is actually intended to be acquired from cheaper (dirtier) sources.

I honestly don't think we can get too excited by e-fuel for cars just yet, as there is definitely some shenanigans going on in the background.


Undercover McNoName

1,331 posts

152 months

Yesterday (18:35)
quotequote all
Arsecati said:
Don't wanna sound like a knob (hard for me, I know), but how much of the electricity currently produced to power all these EV's is actually carbon neutral?

Not against EV's - perfect solution to every day driving....... but it's still a distance away yet from the purity of unicorn farts and angel spit! wink
Nothing is carbon neutral, not even renewables.

But about 33% from renewables in the UK in 2022: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-64179...

D4rez

733 posts

43 months

Yesterday (18:53)
quotequote all
Undercover McNoName said:
Arsecati said:
Don't wanna sound like a knob (hard for me, I know), but how much of the electricity currently produced to power all these EV's is actually carbon neutral?

Not against EV's - perfect solution to every day driving....... but it's still a distance away yet from the purity of unicorn farts and angel spit! wink
Nothing is carbon neutral, not even renewables.

But about 33% from renewables in the UK in 2022: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-64179...
Doesn’t matter anyway, an EV running on almost exclusively electricity from coal feedstock is still better on lifetime CO2.

JJJ.

181 posts

2 months

Yesterday (19:10)
quotequote all
GT9 said:
JJJ. said:
GT9 said:
It was however you who opened up the question of wind power energy cost differentials between Chile and the UK.
Did I really? Honestly, I haven't got any idea on Chile vs UK on wind cost. Who the fk has off the top of their head?
Jesus, may be I'm far smarter than I think.
Don't let me down now, show me where exactly I questioned the difference between Chile and the UK. Or for that matter made any reference to wind costs.
I'll be pleased if you can do, I might even feel a bit smug about it.

Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 23 March 17:59
An hour or so ago Otolith posted that e-fuel costs will be linked to the cost of electricity, and because it uses several times as much electricity (per vehicle mile) then it will cost several times more than using that electricity directly.

You then responded to that by saying that because the e-fuel is being produced in Chile where wind conditions are favourable, why would that relationship apply.
Yes, I asked a question. And the reason I asked is simply because I didn't know the answer. That's far, far different to what you are implying I said.
Come on get a grip.
I'll leave you to it now, may be have the last word and make yourself feel better.



Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 23 March 19:32

Undercover McNoName

1,331 posts

152 months

Yesterday (19:12)
quotequote all
D4rez said:
Undercover McNoName said:
Arsecati said:
Don't wanna sound like a knob (hard for me, I know), but how much of the electricity currently produced to power all these EV's is actually carbon neutral?

Not against EV's - perfect solution to every day driving....... but it's still a distance away yet from the purity of unicorn farts and angel spit! wink
Nothing is carbon neutral, not even renewables.

But about 33% from renewables in the UK in 2022: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-64179...
Doesn’t matter anyway, an EV running on almost exclusively electricity from coal feedstock is still better on lifetime CO2.
Agreed. Not to mention less urban pollution from noise and emissions.

VanquishRider

354 posts

139 months

Yesterday (19:13)
quotequote all
Lot's of classic car owners are hoping that Synthetic fuels will be able to power their cars well into the future. Even if it is expensive. However, could this put an end to that idea? Will this mean that ICE cars of the future would need a different compression ratio etc to use Synthetic fuels? The these fuels would not be compatible with classics then.