Patrick Stewart to return as Picard
Discussion
C5_Steve said:
For those of you stating Star Trek is too "woke", or that it should be "show don't tell".............
I suggest you go back and watch some TOS/TNG/VOY. Off the top of my head we had WHOLE EPISODES on:
Genocide (multiple times)
Misogyny
Racism
Gender/non-binary persons (Riker had a whole relationship with someone forced into the wrong gender, remember?)
Communism
Capitalism
Slavery (multiple times)
Xenophobia (multiple times)
Climate Change
Polyagomy
Star Trek has been dealing with challenging views for decades now however it seems a certain element of the fan base takes issue when these elements become recurring i.e. they feature in the main cast week in and week out.
I don't agree with the argument that these issues shouldn't need to be even discussed because in the future etc etc etc. The whole point of the show and something Disco did so well is highlighting that whilst the Federation may now live by higher values than we do today, not everyone else does. Grey correcting someone (and that someone being Stametts) showed how the conversation should be and that it's ok to get it wrong. It was literally 5 seconds of screen time, one line in a script but it's funny how many people bring it up as "woke". That small addition to the script resonated with a whole bunch of fans who have been asking for Star Trek to actually be MORE overt with its referencing rather than dancing around the issue.
Lastly, Paramount's financial issue the cause of their troubles isn't the Star Trek franchise. Not the series' anyway and we will absolutely be getting more if they continue to be successful. Disco is getting MORE money to film MORE episodes to finish out the show so this isn't a case of it getting pulled because it's failed. How many other shows get that? Their steaming platform is actually one part of the business currently delivering to target, and Star Trek is a big driver of subscriptions. They will obviously need to focus their finances, but they will have this year SNW, Disco (pushed to 2024 now), PIcard, Lower Decks and Prodigy. We've never had more Trek on at one time.
Anyway, bringing this back to Picard I think it's doing a wonderful job of still including these themes whilst paying fan service. Shaw dead naming Seven right at the start was nicely done, Riker dealing with loss and mortality, Raffi with addiction (not just substance but her work). I see LaForge is back this week with his other daughter so hopefully we'll be getting some shots of the Starfleet Museum he's in charge of.
The first part of this post is very good.I suggest you go back and watch some TOS/TNG/VOY. Off the top of my head we had WHOLE EPISODES on:
Genocide (multiple times)
Misogyny
Racism
Gender/non-binary persons (Riker had a whole relationship with someone forced into the wrong gender, remember?)
Communism
Capitalism
Slavery (multiple times)
Xenophobia (multiple times)
Climate Change
Polyagomy
Star Trek has been dealing with challenging views for decades now however it seems a certain element of the fan base takes issue when these elements become recurring i.e. they feature in the main cast week in and week out.
I don't agree with the argument that these issues shouldn't need to be even discussed because in the future etc etc etc. The whole point of the show and something Disco did so well is highlighting that whilst the Federation may now live by higher values than we do today, not everyone else does. Grey correcting someone (and that someone being Stametts) showed how the conversation should be and that it's ok to get it wrong. It was literally 5 seconds of screen time, one line in a script but it's funny how many people bring it up as "woke". That small addition to the script resonated with a whole bunch of fans who have been asking for Star Trek to actually be MORE overt with its referencing rather than dancing around the issue.
Lastly, Paramount's financial issue the cause of their troubles isn't the Star Trek franchise. Not the series' anyway and we will absolutely be getting more if they continue to be successful. Disco is getting MORE money to film MORE episodes to finish out the show so this isn't a case of it getting pulled because it's failed. How many other shows get that? Their steaming platform is actually one part of the business currently delivering to target, and Star Trek is a big driver of subscriptions. They will obviously need to focus their finances, but they will have this year SNW, Disco (pushed to 2024 now), PIcard, Lower Decks and Prodigy. We've never had more Trek on at one time.
Anyway, bringing this back to Picard I think it's doing a wonderful job of still including these themes whilst paying fan service. Shaw dead naming Seven right at the start was nicely done, Riker dealing with loss and mortality, Raffi with addiction (not just substance but her work). I see LaForge is back this week with his other daughter so hopefully we'll be getting some shots of the Starfleet Museum he's in charge of.
So what’s the difference between old trek and new. Why is something that wasn’t an issue now a problem. I personally don’t think it’s got anything to do with the effected groups being part of the main cast.
I think the way these issues are dealt with in new trek are “I’m diverse. Deal with it!” Quite adversarial in its approach.
Old trek would be to frame these subjects in a way that first gave you empathy with the individuals giving you a chance to get on side, before hitting the heavier notes of the subject. It was a gentler approach.
Last words on it. There’s nothing inherently political about increasing diversity and inclusion in your entertainment. It’s a facet of social maturity in society. What’s made this political is the people railing against it, making it their whole personality and politicians seeing what’s happening and jumping on the trend.
ZedLeg said:
Last words on it. There’s nothing inherently political about increasing diversity and inclusion in your entertainment. It’s a facet of social maturity in society. What’s made this political is the people railing against it preaching about it, making it their whole personality and politicians seeing what’s happening and jumping on the trend.
FTFY 
robemcdonald said:
The first part of this post is very good.
So what’s the difference between old trek and new. Why is something that wasn’t an issue now a problem. I personally don’t think it’s got anything to do with the effected groups being part of the main cast.
I think the way these issues are dealt with in new trek are “I’m diverse. Deal with it!” Quite adversarial in its approach.
Old trek would be to frame these subjects in a way that first gave you empathy with the individuals giving you a chance to get on side, before hitting the heavier notes of the subject. It was a gentler approach.
I think you're forgetting how controversial TOS was. The first African-American actress in a lead role? The first interracial kiss on TV? I wouldn't describe that as a gentle approach. So what’s the difference between old trek and new. Why is something that wasn’t an issue now a problem. I personally don’t think it’s got anything to do with the effected groups being part of the main cast.
I think the way these issues are dealt with in new trek are “I’m diverse. Deal with it!” Quite adversarial in its approach.
Old trek would be to frame these subjects in a way that first gave you empathy with the individuals giving you a chance to get on side, before hitting the heavier notes of the subject. It was a gentler approach.
I think the issue we're all discussing here, especially with Disco, is its representation of LGBTQIA+ characters. That's certainly where it's had most of it's troll like criticism (not suggesting anyone here is dishing this out). In this respect specifically, we've had multiple episodes of TNG dealing with gender and sexuality, we've had mirror universe Kira in DS9 hinting at it, we've had Dax who's had both male and female hosts leading to an array of previous partners of the same sex, not to mention the undertones from Garrek over the series. Trek has spent long enough (IMO) taking a gentle approach to this specific issue and I don't feel describing Disco as "woke" is fair at all, even if that word is being used in the correct way to describe a show as politically and socially aware. Trek has ALWAYS been aware of its place in society and its reflection of a utopian and aspirational society.
One of the biggest draws of Trek to me is that it gives everyone a place to be seen and to see reflections of themselves or a world they hope for one day. As a straight white male I've been able to "see" myself in pretty much any science fiction franchise I want to. It is not lost on me that with the characters Trek are introducing they are allowing millions of other people to see a reflection of themselves missing for so long in their favourite franchise. If it brings more fans to the show, I'm all for it.
Guvernator said:
ZedLeg said:
Last words on it. There’s nothing inherently political about increasing diversity and inclusion in your entertainment. It’s a facet of social maturity in society. What’s made this political is the people railing against it preaching about it, making it their whole personality and politicians seeing what’s happening and jumping on the trend.
FTFY C5_Steve said:
I think you're forgetting how controversial TOS was. The first African-American actress in a lead role? The first interracial kiss on TV? I wouldn't describe that as a gentle approach.
I think the issue we're all discussing here, especially with Disco, is its representation of LGBTQIA+ characters. That's certainly where it's had most of it's troll like criticism (not suggesting anyone here is dishing this out). In this respect specifically, we've had multiple episodes of TNG dealing with gender and sexuality, we've had mirror universe Kira in DS9 hinting at it, we've had Dax who's had both male and female hosts leading to an array of previous partners of the same sex, not to mention the undertones from Garrek over the series. Trek has spent long enough (IMO) taking a gentle approach to this specific issue and I don't feel describing Disco as "woke" is fair at all, even if that word is being used in the correct way to describe a show as politically and socially aware. Trek has ALWAYS been aware of its place in society and its reflection of a utopian and aspirational society.
One of the biggest draws of Trek to me is that it gives everyone a place to be seen and to see reflections of themselves or a world they hope for one day. As a straight white male I've been able to "see" myself in pretty much any science fiction franchise I want to. It is not lost on me that with the characters Trek are introducing they are allowing millions of other people to see a reflection of themselves missing for so long in their favourite franchise. If it brings more fans to the show, I'm all for it.
I have zero problem with representation, as you've stated Trek has always been at the forefront of this. The show is about a utopian future, of course it's going to show a much more advanced society which by it's nature should show equality and inclusion. I think the issue we're all discussing here, especially with Disco, is its representation of LGBTQIA+ characters. That's certainly where it's had most of it's troll like criticism (not suggesting anyone here is dishing this out). In this respect specifically, we've had multiple episodes of TNG dealing with gender and sexuality, we've had mirror universe Kira in DS9 hinting at it, we've had Dax who's had both male and female hosts leading to an array of previous partners of the same sex, not to mention the undertones from Garrek over the series. Trek has spent long enough (IMO) taking a gentle approach to this specific issue and I don't feel describing Disco as "woke" is fair at all, even if that word is being used in the correct way to describe a show as politically and socially aware. Trek has ALWAYS been aware of its place in society and its reflection of a utopian and aspirational society.
One of the biggest draws of Trek to me is that it gives everyone a place to be seen and to see reflections of themselves or a world they hope for one day. As a straight white male I've been able to "see" myself in pretty much any science fiction franchise I want to. It is not lost on me that with the characters Trek are introducing they are allowing millions of other people to see a reflection of themselves missing for so long in their favourite franchise. If it brings more fans to the show, I'm all for it.
I'm not disappointed with Disco because it has representation, I'm disappointed because it's a crap TV show that is doing the usual trick of trying to hide behind the "all nerds are homophobes" excuse for failing to pull in the viewing numbers it should have. It seems to be the easy go to for anything which is crap these days and I'm a bit bored of it tbh.
Guvernator said:
I have zero problem with representation, as you've stated Trek has always been at the forefront of this. The show is about a utopian future, of course it's going to show a much more advanced society which by it's nature should show equality and inclusion.
I'm not disappointed with Disco because it has representation, I'm disappointed because it's a crap TV show that is doing the usual trick of trying to hide behind the "all nerds are homophobes" excuse for failing to pull in the viewing numbers it should have. It seems to be the easy go to for anything which is crap these days and I'm a bit bored of it tbh.
I can completely understand why you don't like it don't get me wrong. I certainly don't think it's one of the best shows they've done at all. But I don't think the show is in any way trying to defend it's low viewing figures behind that excuse, are they? I might have missed it but I've never seen anything come from the cast or crew to suggest that. I'm not disappointed with Disco because it has representation, I'm disappointed because it's a crap TV show that is doing the usual trick of trying to hide behind the "all nerds are homophobes" excuse for failing to pull in the viewing numbers it should have. It seems to be the easy go to for anything which is crap these days and I'm a bit bored of it tbh.
If it's fans that are trying to justify it that way, then I agree with you that it's a poor excuse and not a reason for something not being popular at all. Disco has had more than enough issues to justify it's poor performance. It's diversity certainly isn't one nor should it be.
Ok so I know I said I was done but this is relevant.
We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
ZedLeg said:
Ok so I know I said I was done but this is relevant.
We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
Only if it was written in an obnoxious way like discovery.We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
Guvernator said:
I have zero problem with representation, as you've stated Trek has always been at the forefront of this. The show is about a utopian future, of course it's going to show a much more advanced society which by it's nature should show equality and inclusion.
I'm not disappointed with Disco because it has representation, I'm disappointed because it's a crap TV show that is doing the usual trick of trying to hide behind the "all nerds are homophobes" excuse for failing to pull in the viewing numbers it should have. It seems to be the easy go to for anything which is crap these days and I'm a bit bored of it tbh.
You're not dealing with an honest argument here ... it's the usual strawman that woke types put up when the politicisation of properties like Star Trek is decried by annoyed fans of the show who just want to see actual good plots and characters. The usual tactic of tarring anyone who doesn't like the new, mangled product as an -ist or a -phobe is of course trotted out, as is now normal.I'm not disappointed with Disco because it has representation, I'm disappointed because it's a crap TV show that is doing the usual trick of trying to hide behind the "all nerds are homophobes" excuse for failing to pull in the viewing numbers it should have. It seems to be the easy go to for anything which is crap these days and I'm a bit bored of it tbh.
The nub of the issue is that plots and stories are written around directly pushing political ideology over actually telling a story. It doesn't help that many of the writers and producers are talentless hacks who are more about 'activism' than actual creativity and writing skill.
It shows in the (lack of) quality of garbage TV like 'Discovery' but you could also see how the producers/writers were trying to deconstruct Picard along woke lines in the woeful Season One, that was so disappointing.
We've had about half a decade of increasingly unwatchable, overtly political, cultural output which is finally coming to a head in the disastrous financial bottom line of the companies making it - and as a result we seem to be seeing the first glimmers of an actual refocussing on producing good entertainment if for no other reason than the studios realise that they need to make stuff that the vast majority of normal people will want to pay for.
Let's hope the trend continues. So much damage has been done by these lunatics.
Lucas Ayde said:
You're not dealing with an honest argument here ... it's the usual strawman that woke types put up when the politicisation of properties like Star Trek is decried by annoyed fans of the show who just want to see actual good plots and characters. The usual tactic of tarring anyone who doesn't like the new, mangled product as an -ist or a -phobe is of course trotted out, as is now normal.
The nub of the issue is that plots and stories are written around directly pushing political ideology over actually telling a story. It doesn't help that many of the writers and producers are talentless hacks who are more about 'activism' than actual creativity and writing skill.
It shows in the (lack of) quality of garbage TV like 'Discovery' but you could also see how the producers/writers were trying to deconstruct Picard along woke lines in the woeful Season One, that was so disappointing.
We've had about half a decade of increasingly unwatchable, overtly political, cultural output which is finally coming to a head in the disastrous financial bottom line of the companies making it - and as a result we seem to be seeing the first glimmers of an actual refocussing on producing good entertainment if for no other reason than the studios realise that they need to make stuff that the vast majority of normal people will want to pay for.
Let's hope the trend continues. So much damage has been done by these lunatics.
Good post!The nub of the issue is that plots and stories are written around directly pushing political ideology over actually telling a story. It doesn't help that many of the writers and producers are talentless hacks who are more about 'activism' than actual creativity and writing skill.
It shows in the (lack of) quality of garbage TV like 'Discovery' but you could also see how the producers/writers were trying to deconstruct Picard along woke lines in the woeful Season One, that was so disappointing.
We've had about half a decade of increasingly unwatchable, overtly political, cultural output which is finally coming to a head in the disastrous financial bottom line of the companies making it - and as a result we seem to be seeing the first glimmers of an actual refocussing on producing good entertainment if for no other reason than the studios realise that they need to make stuff that the vast majority of normal people will want to pay for.
Let's hope the trend continues. So much damage has been done by these lunatics.
All we want is good content! Picard is a step in the right direction.
Someone mentioned a few posts back that Disney were in financial trouble because of spending on their streaming service. If their new content was good, the money spent on the service would not have been an issue, as many would want to subscribe in order to watch the new content. It seems the opposite has happened.
One would suspect that when we are told the 'majority' that are crying out out for this 'Woke' content is quite the fib...
chris watton said:
Good post!
All we want is good content! Picard is a step in the right direction.
Someone mentioned a few posts back that Disney were in financial trouble because of spending on their streaming service. If their new content was good, the money spent on the service would not have been an issue, as many would want to subscribe in order to watch the new content. It seems the opposite has happened.
One would suspect that when we are told the 'majority' that are crying out out for this 'Woke' content is quite the fib...
That doesn't stack up though. Netflix has put out some of the most acclaimed films and TV of the last 10 years and they're struggling too. The problem is that everyone is spending as if they're going to get the whole pie, which is impossible.All we want is good content! Picard is a step in the right direction.
Someone mentioned a few posts back that Disney were in financial trouble because of spending on their streaming service. If their new content was good, the money spent on the service would not have been an issue, as many would want to subscribe in order to watch the new content. It seems the opposite has happened.
One would suspect that when we are told the 'majority' that are crying out out for this 'Woke' content is quite the fib...
teZedLeg said:
Ok so I know I said I was done but this is relevant.
We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
If you can't tell the difference between the way THAT was written, and the way Discovery is written, then anyone wishing to debate the point with you is wasting their time. What many of us have said is it is THAT DIFFERENCE that has caused so much objection. You'll always get the odd extreme homophobic weirdo but that is NOT the majority.We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
Flip Martian said:
ZedLeg said:
Ok so I know I said I was done but this is relevant.
We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
If you can't tell the difference between the way THAT was written, and the way Discovery is written, then anyone wishing to debate the point with you is wasting their time. What many of us have said is it is THAT DIFFERENCE that has caused so much objection. You'll always get the odd extreme homophobic weirdo but that is NOT the majority.We watched the TNG episode “The Outcast” last night. The Enterprise meet a species who are non binary and asexual. However there are people among them who know they have a binary gender. There isn’t any physical difference, they just know.
If that came out as a new episode now, the aforementioned people who can’t behave online would lose their minds.
ZedLeg said:
What was the difference in how they're written?
It's been explained many many times in here what the difference in writing style and level was. You're just trying to keep a circular argument going, so I'm out. I shall look forward to talking about Picard ep 6 when other people have watched it.Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff