Discussion
DRS has been around for a good while now, and we all know how it works.
So after all this time, what have Red Bull found after all these years that no-one else has, that gives them a massive advantage under DRS? I thought I heard someone say 20mph over the rest of the field.
Not accusing RB of anything underhand here, just genuinely interested in what they might be doing, that no-one else is.
So after all this time, what have Red Bull found after all these years that no-one else has, that gives them a massive advantage under DRS? I thought I heard someone say 20mph over the rest of the field.
Not accusing RB of anything underhand here, just genuinely interested in what they might be doing, that no-one else is.
Clip from elsewhere
It's a bit backwards from regular cars. As you say, opening the wastegate reduces pressure in the turbo and thus the turbo speed. Normally, this reduces engine power.
However, F1 cars have an MGU-H, which is basically a motor/generator connected to the turbo shaft. When the wastegates open, the MGU-H can be used to keep the turbo spinning and so keep the engine well supplied with intake air. Simultaneously, opening the wastegate reduces the back pressure in the exhaust system (since the exhaust gases don't have to spin the turbo).
Add these together, and you have the same intake air conditions and better exhaust conditions, so the power output of the combustion engine increases. The trade-off is that using the MGU-H to spin the turbo quickly drains the battery, so this is just used as a "boost mode" for overtakes or on corner exits.
It's a bit backwards from regular cars. As you say, opening the wastegate reduces pressure in the turbo and thus the turbo speed. Normally, this reduces engine power.
However, F1 cars have an MGU-H, which is basically a motor/generator connected to the turbo shaft. When the wastegates open, the MGU-H can be used to keep the turbo spinning and so keep the engine well supplied with intake air. Simultaneously, opening the wastegate reduces the back pressure in the exhaust system (since the exhaust gases don't have to spin the turbo).
Add these together, and you have the same intake air conditions and better exhaust conditions, so the power output of the combustion engine increases. The trade-off is that using the MGU-H to spin the turbo quickly drains the battery, so this is just used as a "boost mode" for overtakes or on corner exits.
Yes its pretty unpleasant when some sour faced git keeps beating everyone and things like the DRS fill your thoughts.
Why were they always tinkering with it the last few years? Do the dozy fia only check it when the car is stationary? Maybe it opens to a cavernous size during the race.
Odd how a slippery car gains the most. I would thing a barn door one would see the bigger percentage improvment in speed.
But I only have experience of the chocolate Aero.
I hope that Dan Fallows was sat in the same meetings when they were dreaming up this latest dodge.
TBH they should just ban the DRS. The whole F1 thing just reminds you of Wackey races. Newey must have been sat watching that as a child.
Why were they always tinkering with it the last few years? Do the dozy fia only check it when the car is stationary? Maybe it opens to a cavernous size during the race.
Odd how a slippery car gains the most. I would thing a barn door one would see the bigger percentage improvment in speed.
But I only have experience of the chocolate Aero.
I hope that Dan Fallows was sat in the same meetings when they were dreaming up this latest dodge.
TBH they should just ban the DRS. The whole F1 thing just reminds you of Wackey races. Newey must have been sat watching that as a child.
Whilst watching the race, particularly after the safety car restart when there is two laps with no DRS I don't remember him getting that close to GR. Then once he had DRS it was a rocket ship.
Isn't the assumption that they have lots of "floor" generated downforce and have mastered this better than anyone else, particularly controlling the ride height with clever suspension. I'm guessing that when they open the DRS the ride height changes and the floor based downforce comes off hugely.
What is also clever is that DRS is unlimited in qualifying, so if you have the best performing DRS it offers a big benefit in the qualifying session. You can run more downforce which is probably better for race tyre deg, knowing that you are gaining, in speed, what you would conventionally lose in a high downforce setup. Depending how powerful it is, it almost guarantees you Pole, and if you get a a freak penalty or reliability problem that puts you mid pack, you use your DRS to breeze past everyone.
They have nailed it. Respect!
Edit: It looks like it might only be DRS zones they can use it in qually. I think it used to be unlimited when it was first introduced. The points still stand, particularly on multiple DRS zone circuits.
Isn't the assumption that they have lots of "floor" generated downforce and have mastered this better than anyone else, particularly controlling the ride height with clever suspension. I'm guessing that when they open the DRS the ride height changes and the floor based downforce comes off hugely.
What is also clever is that DRS is unlimited in qualifying, so if you have the best performing DRS it offers a big benefit in the qualifying session. You can run more downforce which is probably better for race tyre deg, knowing that you are gaining, in speed, what you would conventionally lose in a high downforce setup. Depending how powerful it is, it almost guarantees you Pole, and if you get a a freak penalty or reliability problem that puts you mid pack, you use your DRS to breeze past everyone.
They have nailed it. Respect!
Edit: It looks like it might only be DRS zones they can use it in qually. I think it used to be unlimited when it was first introduced. The points still stand, particularly on multiple DRS zone circuits.
Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 21st March 16:57
gt_12345 said:
Isn't it obviously they have more downforce, so when DRS is open, they benefit the most (because reverse effect)?
But DRS only opens the top plane of the rear wing so in theory if all cars had equal downforce but different sized rear wings then the one with the biggest rear wing would get most benefit.Therefore RB have found something clever and managed to make their DRS have a greater effect on drag of the overall car that the other teams. Given their track record with flexible elements one could suspect they are up to something and maybe it does open more at speed and doesn't show in the static tests.
Although aren't those dots on the rear wings designed so the FIA can measure flex on track via the rear cameras?
Did you see the edit? I corrected myself. It used to be unlimited usage when it was first introduced, now restricted to just DRS zones.
I would be interested to see the telemetry of the two Qualifying sessions we have had so far to see what the data says. Does anyone know if that sort of info gets published or interpolated from video footage?
I would be interested to see the telemetry of the two Qualifying sessions we have had so far to see what the data says. Does anyone know if that sort of info gets published or interpolated from video footage?
Siao said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
Jon_Bmw said:
What is also clever is that DRS is unlimited in qualifying,
DRS can only be used within the designated DRS zones in Qualifying.Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 21st March 16:57
With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
Snappy89 said:
It looks like they're able to stall the beam wings/floor when the DRS flap is open.
That being said, looking at the speed trap data. They're not that much quicker than other teams with the DRS open.
This could be down to gearing - having so few ratios to choose from now vs a few years ago probably means the overall mph ceiling is more easily achieved?That being said, looking at the speed trap data. They're not that much quicker than other teams with the DRS open.
Possibly the additional catering budget has allowed them to grease the car?
Dermot O'Logical said:
Siao said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
Jon_Bmw said:
What is also clever is that DRS is unlimited in qualifying,
DRS can only be used within the designated DRS zones in Qualifying.Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 21st March 16:57
With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
Anyway
Dermot O'Logical said:
Not if you take the comment in the context of the post, which inferred that Red Bull gain a massive advantage during Qualifying.
With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
So, did you see the edit? Look at the Saudi DRS zones. They are significant portion of the "straights." With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
The overall high downforce but exceptional DRS straight line speed is impressive, this thread is about thinking about how they are doing it, not how massive or not massive the advantage is.
What they have done should be celebrated rather than compare to Merc. Some of us are interested in how thats achieved. Speculation if you like, I gave my thoughts, what are yours?
Jon_Bmw said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
Not if you take the comment in the context of the post, which inferred that Red Bull gain a massive advantage during Qualifying.
With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
So, did you see the edit? Look at the Saudi DRS zones. They are significant portion of the "straights." With DRS use restricted, and available to all during Qualifying, the advantage is marginal. It's nowhere near the advantage that Mercedes gained with the use of DAS, which meant that they could heat up the front tyres on an out lap. That most certainly was a massive Qualifying advantage.
The overall high downforce but exceptional DRS straight line speed is impressive, this thread is about thinking about how they are doing it, not how massive or not massive the advantage is.
What they have done should be celebrated rather than compare to Merc. Some of us are interested in how thats achieved. Speculation if you like, I gave my thoughts, what are yours?
I agree, it does seem to favour RB. But them's the rules everyone is playing by and is Newey's playground.
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