Plane etiquette… lurgy
Discussion
gotoPzero said:
As I said its luck of the draw regards who you are sitting near.
Its not the same though as breathing in the same air for hours, which is what people always quote which is frankly 100% wrong.
The more modern the aircraft the better the systems. The newer wide bodies replace the whole cabin air (with fresh) in minutes for the duration of the flight.
The bold bit. I've heard this before. How does it work, without the passengers constantly feeling a rush of moving air over them, as it's sucked in and blown out of the ventilation system? Frankly it sounds impossible - willing to learn though.Its not the same though as breathing in the same air for hours, which is what people always quote which is frankly 100% wrong.
The more modern the aircraft the better the systems. The newer wide bodies replace the whole cabin air (with fresh) in minutes for the duration of the flight.
Aside from that, I love the people in here insisting that paying more for 1st Class is the answer. As if wealthy people don't carry and spread airborne viruses. Hilarious. It's so PH.
The AC packs are huge so have massive capacity.
Something like the A350 will have many, many zones. All taking the correct temp air from the AC packs and then sending it to the desired area, then at the same time sucking out the old air and exhausting it. You dont see the vents as they are basically the entire length of the aircraft and run up the skin between the windows.
The AC packs will be about the size of a small car, and there are 2.
Its only when something like this happens (condensation due to the humid environment) do you realise how much air they are pushing around.
Something like the A350 will have many, many zones. All taking the correct temp air from the AC packs and then sending it to the desired area, then at the same time sucking out the old air and exhausting it. You dont see the vents as they are basically the entire length of the aircraft and run up the skin between the windows.
The AC packs will be about the size of a small car, and there are 2.
Its only when something like this happens (condensation due to the humid environment) do you realise how much air they are pushing around.
grumbledoak said:
Where does this crap keep coming from? "It's a numbers game so we have to keep on doing the things that don't work!"
"Every little helps" was an Asda marketing slogan, not a science degree.
Because it IS. That's why."Every little helps" was an Asda marketing slogan, not a science degree.
There is a threshold level of ingestion of a virus below which it doesn't take hold, and above which it does. That varies from virus to virus (measles is ridiculously contagious, for example*), from person to person (respiratory condition, immune system condition, probably other stuff too including genetics), and even from day to day in the same person (to a lesser degree).
So it then comes down to statistics, based on:-
- concentration of virus in the air
- how much the person is breathing
- how fast the person is travelling through the contaminated area
- what the threshold level is for that virus/person combination
* https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/med...
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/parents-top4.htm...
gotoPzero said:
The AC packs are huge so have massive capacity.
Something like the A350 will have many, many zones. All taking the correct temp air from the AC packs and then sending it to the desired area, then at the same time sucking out the old air and exhausting it. You dont see the vents as they are basically the entire length of the aircraft and run up the skin between the windows.
The AC packs will be about the size of a small car, and there are 2.
Its only when something like this happens (condensation due to the humid environment) do you realise how much air they are pushing around.
Thanks, can't watch the video sadly as I'm behind a restricted firewall at the mo. What's the explanation for passengers not feeling the movement of so much air? When I'm on a plane it feels very still, stuffy even. If the air around me is being replaced so quickly, how don't I feel it moving?Something like the A350 will have many, many zones. All taking the correct temp air from the AC packs and then sending it to the desired area, then at the same time sucking out the old air and exhausting it. You dont see the vents as they are basically the entire length of the aircraft and run up the skin between the windows.
The AC packs will be about the size of a small car, and there are 2.
Its only when something like this happens (condensation due to the humid environment) do you realise how much air they are pushing around.
Apologies if your video link explains this.
So, anyone advocating masks deserves nothing but contempt in relation to that particular matter.
I had to use the bus to travel into Leeds centre last week. Journey there's, bus packed, boiling hot, all windows misted up with condensation, squeezed next to a random.
Journey home. Hugely obese chap sat behind, no problem there but he f
king stank! Then a you lad sat next to me, he'd just been to fetch a kebab and started eating that. Again, onion/garlic and bushmeat stink and he didn't know how to eat with a closed mouth. fking disgusting.
Anything I've endured on an economy flight was nowt compared to that!
I had to use the bus to travel into Leeds centre last week. Journey there's, bus packed, boiling hot, all windows misted up with condensation, squeezed next to a random.
Journey home. Hugely obese chap sat behind, no problem there but he f
king stank! Then a you lad sat next to me, he'd just been to fetch a kebab and started eating that. Again, onion/garlic and bushmeat stink and he didn't know how to eat with a closed mouth. fking disgusting.Anything I've endured on an economy flight was nowt compared to that!
havoc said:
RemarkLima said:
I thought that the latest study showed that masks were ineffective against aerosol transmission, as really it's in your breath and that will go through and around the mask.
Coughing and sneezing into an elbow probably makes the most sense, along with hand cleaning.
Anyway, I was calling BS on someone cancelling a holiday because they have a cold.
To this and your other post with the link on...Coughing and sneezing into an elbow probably makes the most sense, along with hand cleaning.
Anyway, I was calling BS on someone cancelling a holiday because they have a cold.
The study I read (major publication - CDC/Lancet, something like that) talked about the droplets when they leave your mouth being too large to suspend in the air (which is why initially they said Covid wasn't airborne), but then realising that the act of the larger droplets travelling through the air at speed breaks them up, to the point that they usually aerosolise before hitting the ground. Which is why masks are ineffective for the wearer - anything you breathe in gets through any mask less than a well-fitted FFP3.
Are some droplets small-enough when they leave the mouth? Don't know...can't remember all the details, possibly. But as infection is a numbers game, anything you can do to reduce the numbers helps, IYSWIM. (In this case helps someone else, not you)
Coughing into elbow/sleeve & hand cleaning - agree 100%. It's what I do and I only bother with a mask now if I've got something nasty (beyond simple cold) and have to travel. And I wouldn't cancel a f'n holiday unless I needed hospitalisation...that's excessive.
Basically, in the real world, with real people, doing real things, masks make no difference... Even early days of the pandemic that was a known thing that they wouldn't make any difference. If you've ever worked in a medical setting there is specific doffing and donning of masks and other PPE, which will never happen in the wild.
As a nurse friend of mine pointed out, to make them effective doing the weekly shop you would;
1. Have someone in full PPE handing out correctly sanitized masks on entry
2. If you touch your face or mask at any point during the shop, you would need to return to the start, decontaminate, re don a new mask and start again
3. At the end, be stripped of relevant PPE by someone else to then incinerate all wasted material
In the end it was a "shown to be doing something and give everyone a sense they can contribute" that won out for the mask mandates.
Obviously, YMMV
otolith said:
There should be reclining and non-reclining sections, so that if you book the former you have no grounds to complain if the person in front of you uses the seat as designed.
I agree with the principle, sadly it won't work that way in reality. Airlines are eliminating reclining seats in economy to fit more rows in. Avianca has recently refitted it's A320 fleet with non reclining seats and shoved in an extra 2 rows. Wasn't that long ago that getting seat 30A meant you were flying on a widebody.
It does really put the nail in the coffin that is the old excuse "I have a right to recline". You might have had a point 20+ years ago when the average economy seat pitch was 33", now it's 30" (so some airlines are smaller than that) there really isn't room.
The other option being taken by premium airlines are articulated seat pans, this means your intrusion on the person behind you is minimal, but they're more complex (read: heavier) than just removing the reclining function.
RemarkLima said:
Read the Cochrane study, which takes all those studies and tries to make sense of it.
It's obvious you didn't.Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
captain_cynic said:
It's obvious you didn't.
Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
Exactly. Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
The problem lies with the utterly selfish, the Conspiracy Theorists and the big babies who don't want to wear them. Common sense, let alone any Studies, shows that a mask will reduce the spread distance of emissions made by the wearer of the mask. They don't protect the wearer. They help protect others.
It's such an easy concept to understand in terms of risk reduction but the aforementioned have screamed and cried and tried to ignore what masks actually do and instead focus upon what they don't do which is stupid. Masks absolutely do reduce risk by reducing spread distance. They do not protect the wearer, they do not prevent any virus particles getting through them, but they do disrupt the distance!
I flew with flu once. At lunchtime I was swimming off a boat on a whale watching trip off Tenerife. In the airport I started feeling off colour. By the time the plane took off I was absolutely rotten, sneezing, nose running like a tap, fever, headache, and begging paracetamol off the cabin staff. Was off work for the next week with crawling to the bathroom level illness. Suspect I probably shared that with half the plane, but it came on incredibly rapidly.
PastelNata said:
captain_cynic said:
It's obvious you didn't.
Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
Exactly. Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
The problem lies with the utterly selfish, the Conspiracy Theorists and the big babies who don't want to wear them. Common sense, let alone any Studies, shows that a mask will reduce the spread distance of emissions made by the wearer of the mask. They don't protect the wearer. They help protect others.
It's such an easy concept to understand in terms of risk reduction but the aforementioned have screamed and cried and tried to ignore what masks actually do and instead focus upon what they don't do which is stupid. Masks absolutely do reduce risk by reducing spread distance. They do not protect the wearer, they do not prevent any virus particles getting through them, but they do disrupt the distance!
t science. And then insinuating anyone that doesn't agree as being a bad person.Honestly, it's been done to death on here already and it just makes you look like a massive bell end.
Between 2011 and 2019 I didn't get on a single flight, and I got ill every now and then - sore throat every 18 months, flu-like symptoms every three years or so on average. For holidays, I stuck to driving down to the warm parts of Europe. In October 2018 and Feb 2019, I took two return flights to Milan and Paris, and got mildly unwell after both trips.
I flew to the U.S. twice last year in May and October for about 10 days each time, and then to Paris in December. And then I flew again to Paris at the end of January. And I got unwell after every trip, and very unwell after the last two to Paris.
What do I take from this? I don't know if I'm more prone to infection since getting COVID last year, or whether it has something to do with me living alone and working from home meaning that I don't have much exposure to people normally, but as far as I'm concerned, getting into a metal tube with hundreds of other people almost guarantees catching some form of virus.
But if I started to feel ill before catching a flight, would I not fly? Of course not. I don't get on flights for fun, it's because I have to get somewhere. Now that I have to get to Paris a few times a year for work, I've thought about taking Eurostar. But it's so much more of a hassle to get to St. Pancras that I think it would take me longer. And it's not even any cheaper. I have no idea how it compares for getting ill though!
I flew to the U.S. twice last year in May and October for about 10 days each time, and then to Paris in December. And then I flew again to Paris at the end of January. And I got unwell after every trip, and very unwell after the last two to Paris.
What do I take from this? I don't know if I'm more prone to infection since getting COVID last year, or whether it has something to do with me living alone and working from home meaning that I don't have much exposure to people normally, but as far as I'm concerned, getting into a metal tube with hundreds of other people almost guarantees catching some form of virus.
But if I started to feel ill before catching a flight, would I not fly? Of course not. I don't get on flights for fun, it's because I have to get somewhere. Now that I have to get to Paris a few times a year for work, I've thought about taking Eurostar. But it's so much more of a hassle to get to St. Pancras that I think it would take me longer. And it's not even any cheaper. I have no idea how it compares for getting ill though!
dave_s13 said:
Honestly, it's been done to death on here already and it just makes you look like a massive bell end.
Yes it has, and both sides are dogmatically clinging to whichever scientific literature promotes the answer they WANT to be right. (The trading of insults is and has always been unnecessary, and is the sign of someone closed-minded who just wants the conversation to go away.)
Trouble nowadays is anyone with a degree (and many without) can claim to be an expert, publish BS on the web, and get people to believe them. Look at Andrew Tait, FFS.
The scientific literature and research PROVED that mask-wearing doesn't help the wearer (with the potential exception of FFP3, which are full-on medical-grade). What was NOT PROVEN by any of this (despite some clamouring and misdirection) was that mask wearing doesn't prevent the spread of germs, as this is a long-established tenet of medicine with rather a lot of evidence to the positive.
What IS KNOWN is that coughing INTO something (elbow, sleeve, tissues etc.) massively reduces the spread of virus. And this indeed is the current advice. And what is a mask but a fabric tissue/sleeve placed right in front of the mouth at all times?!?
dave_s13 said:
PastelNata said:
captain_cynic said:
It's obvious you didn't.
Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
Exactly. Because it didn't say any such thing.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/multiple-st...
The things you are pushing origniated from a well known conspiracy theorist, Robert Malone.
Now can this whole "masks don't work" thing be put to bed.
The problem lies with the utterly selfish, the Conspiracy Theorists and the big babies who don't want to wear them. Common sense, let alone any Studies, shows that a mask will reduce the spread distance of emissions made by the wearer of the mask. They don't protect the wearer. They help protect others.
It's such an easy concept to understand in terms of risk reduction but the aforementioned have screamed and cried and tried to ignore what masks actually do and instead focus upon what they don't do which is stupid. Masks absolutely do reduce risk by reducing spread distance. They do not protect the wearer, they do not prevent any virus particles getting through them, but they do disrupt the distance!
t science. And then insinuating anyone that doesn't agree as being a bad person.Honestly, it's been done to death on here already and it just makes you look like a massive bell end.
[quote=LunarOne]but as far as I'm concerned, getting into a metal tube with hundreds of other people almost guarantees catching some form of virus./quote]
I've just
Trained XXX to PAD(dington)
Tubed PAD to LHR
Flown LHR to Bangkok via Helsinki
Caught the rammed (standing room only) metro from BKK SVB to China town.
(taxi back to DMK)
Flown BKK(DMK) to Krabi.
Flown Krabi to BKK
Flown BKK to Trat,
Flown Trat to BKK
Flown BKK to Krabi
Flown Krabi to BKK
Flown BKK to LHR via Helsinki.
Tubed LHR to PAD
Trained PAD to XXX.
Two months. NEVER a mask.
Two of us. Not so much as a sniffle. And we sat next to constant coughers. So much so, on one flight we moved to other seats, so as not to ruin our own holiday.
SO no guarantee of catching any kind of virus. It's in your mind.
I've just
Trained XXX to PAD(dington)
Tubed PAD to LHR
Flown LHR to Bangkok via Helsinki
Caught the rammed (standing room only) metro from BKK SVB to China town.
(taxi back to DMK)
Flown BKK(DMK) to Krabi.
Flown Krabi to BKK
Flown BKK to Trat,
Flown Trat to BKK
Flown BKK to Krabi
Flown Krabi to BKK
Flown BKK to LHR via Helsinki.
Tubed LHR to PAD
Trained PAD to XXX.
Two months. NEVER a mask.
Two of us. Not so much as a sniffle. And we sat next to constant coughers. So much so, on one flight we moved to other seats, so as not to ruin our own holiday.
SO no guarantee of catching any kind of virus. It's in your mind.
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