TfL to slap 20mph limit on 65km more of London roads in Sept

TfL to slap 20mph limit on 65km more of London roads in Sept

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Discussion

RECr

352 posts

38 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
James6112 said:
“Transport for London (TfL) is pushing forward with plans to reduce the speed limits on 137 miles of its 367-mile network by 2024”

As long as targeted to residential/side roads, good news.
Hopefully enforced.
The twonks going too fast are the reason this is coming (not just London)
TFL don't manage residential/side roads, those are looked after by the borough councils.

livinginasia

758 posts

97 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
It really is, it’s obvious they won’t be happy until the whole city stops functioning entirely. (I came home to an NIP for 24 in a 20 today).
My goodness that’s just nonsense. Very sorry to hear that.

croyde

21,207 posts

217 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
I went on a speed awareness course due to doing 89 on a motorway. I call that speeding so fair cop.

I felt sorry for others on the course for getting done for 24 in a 20 or 33 in a 30.

Evil! the lot of them smile

Stig

11,776 posts

271 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
gt_12345 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
raspy said:
I don't know about other places in the UK, but the sheer amount of moped drivers these days riding like lunatics in London make driving in urban areas really hazardous.

They should all be limited to 20mph and monitored with black boxes for risky behaviour.
The moped fast food delivery drivers in London are a massive problem, but the problem is easily solved.

It should be the law that no one on a provisional licence, be it car or bike, can drive for business. Pleasure use only until you've passed your test.

Thus no one insuring a moped on a provisional licence could get business use cover as it wouldn't be available to provisional licence holders, and as soon as the police saw a pizza box on the back of a moped with L plates, they could pull them for no insurance.

I fail to see a down side to this plan. Who the hell wants provisional licence holders in any kind of vehicle driving for business?
Agreed.
In principle - a good idea. However, given the number of 'peds that constantly drive well over the limit (average speed section of A40 for example) leads me to believe loads don't have licence, tax or insurance.

croyde

21,207 posts

217 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Stig said:
gt_12345 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
raspy said:
I don't know about other places in the UK, but the sheer amount of moped drivers these days riding like lunatics in London make driving in urban areas really hazardous.

They should all be limited to 20mph and monitored with black boxes for risky behaviour.
The moped fast food delivery drivers in London are a massive problem, but the problem is easily solved.

It should be the law that no one on a provisional licence, be it car or bike, can drive for business. Pleasure use only until you've passed your test.

Thus no one insuring a moped on a provisional licence could get business use cover as it wouldn't be available to provisional licence holders, and as soon as the police saw a pizza box on the back of a moped with L plates, they could pull them for no insurance.

I fail to see a down side to this plan. Who the hell wants provisional licence holders in any kind of vehicle driving for business?
Agreed.
In principle - a good idea. However, given the number of 'peds that constantly drive well over the limit (average speed section of A40 for example) leads me to believe loads don't have licence, tax or insurance.
Absolutely. There is no way most of those guys have expensive 'hire and reward' insurance, or will even know of its existence.

It was pricey enough when I was a well paid motorcycle courier back in the 80s.

Doubt any Deliveroo rider/driver bothers with any form of legality. Any that do, can't be making any profit.

oyster

11,878 posts

235 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
aceofspades1 said:
20mph at 2am on a 6-lane carriageway is pure evil.
Hoofy said:
It's all around me. Bit annoying when I'm driving at 1am
lobster940 said:
I speak as someone who was flashed the other day on an empty Vauxhall Bridge Road at 3am
Why are you expecting road speed limit policy to be applied for complete outlier cases?

Tribal Chestnut

2,703 posts

169 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
oyster said:
aceofspades1 said:
20mph at 2am on a 6-lane carriageway is pure evil.
Hoofy said:
It's all around me. Bit annoying when I'm driving at 1am
lobster940 said:
I speak as someone who was flashed the other day on an empty Vauxhall Bridge Road at 3am
Why are you expecting road speed limit policy to be applied for complete outlier cases?
Surely you meant ‘not to be applied’?

oyster

11,878 posts

235 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Tribal Chestnut said:
oyster said:
aceofspades1 said:
20mph at 2am on a 6-lane carriageway is pure evil.
Hoofy said:
It's all around me. Bit annoying when I'm driving at 1am
lobster940 said:
I speak as someone who was flashed the other day on an empty Vauxhall Bridge Road at 3am
Why are you expecting road speed limit policy to be applied for complete outlier cases?
Surely you meant ‘not to be applied’?
No. my wording is correct.

The above 3 posters are suggesting the revised limits are wrong as there is little risk of the existing speed limit at the times they are travelling.
My point is that TfL and the Police cannot, and indeed should not, apply policy based on extreme cases. And travelling at such times is an extreme case - it has to be, otherwise the roads wouldn't be empty at that time!

gavsdavs

1,040 posts

113 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Slapping a 20mph on the London arteries seems to be motivated by nothing other than revenue.

The side/residential roads are where it's really needed and TFL have no jurisdiction or enforcement there.

You just get mad braking for the cameras and back up to normal speeds directly afterwards.

This policy to just drive people out of cars is misguided. It should start with provision of reliable and economic alternatives which don't exist.

80% of the vehicles I pass on my commute into london are commercial vehicles - lorries, taxis, vans, etc. Public transport generally isn't an alternaive for those cases.

Edited by gavsdavs on Wednesday 22 March 11:37

Pooh

3,605 posts

240 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
POIDH said:
I really like the 20mph limits in Scotland - and feel that the majority of drivers have slowed down (albeit not down to the 20mph), benefitting us all with safer, healthier and more sustainable lives.

For those looking to maintain 30mph, what makes you think that is an appropriate speed in a built up area?
A lot of the 20mph limits in Scotland are stupid, around where I live there are lots of roads with a small number of houses close to them that have gone from 60mph to 40mph, which in many cases was reasonable but they are now 20mph which makes no sense and is largely ignored. It brings speed limits in general into disrepute.
Do you have any evidence to support the idea that 20mph limits make us healthier? Many cars have to drop down to 3rd gear at that speed and produce more pollution than being in a higher gear at 30mph.

RazerSauber

1,961 posts

47 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
croyde said:
What's with the 20MPH on 65KM of roads within London.

Either 32kmh on 65km, or 20mph on 39 miles.

Come on Evening Standard, make your mind up!
That's to emphasise how low 20mph is and how massive 65km of roads is. Adds pointless drama to the headline.

pocketspring

2,389 posts

8 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
My car uses more fuel at 20mph in third than 30mph in fourth. So the woman on TV yesterday for the Green party didn't really have much of a clue when she said about the environmental aspect.

Unreal

1,053 posts

12 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
pocketspring said:
My car uses more fuel at 20mph in third than 30mph in fourth. So the woman on TV yesterday for the Green party didn't really have much of a clue when she said about the environmental aspect.
You can't have a discussion with those people. They do have a clue. The problem is that their objective is to drive all cars off the road and make driving as inconvenient and expensive as possible but they aren't honest enough to say that.

kiethton

13,554 posts

167 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
pocketspring said:
My car uses more fuel at 20mph in third than 30mph in fourth. So the woman on TV yesterday for the Green party didn't really have much of a clue when she said about the environmental aspect.
Mine was worse - 20mph needed 2nd gear (2ZZ Exige so not enough torque in 3rd) while 30 zones you could pull 3rd safely. With a Larini exhaust fitted (103db static) I'm sure which speed the local residents would prefer...

croyde

21,207 posts

217 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
kiethton said:
Mine was worse - 20mph needed 2nd gear (2ZZ Exige so not enough torque in 3rd) while 30 zones you could pull 3rd safely. With a Larini exhaust fitted (103db static) I'm sure which speed the local residents would prefer...
hehe

gt_12345

689 posts

22 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
gavsdavs said:
Slapping a 20mph on the London arteries seems to be motivated by nothing other than revenue.

The side/residential roads are where it's really needed and TFL have no jurisdiction or enforcement there.

You just get mad braking for the cameras and back up to normal speeds directly afterwards.

This policy to just drive people out of cars is misguided. It should start with provision of reliable and economic alternatives which don't exist.

80% of the vehicles I pass on my commute into london are commercial vehicles - lorries, taxis, vans, etc. Public transport generally isn't an alternaive for those cases.

Edited by gavsdavs on Wednesday 22 March 11:37
I do think it's an ideological thing too. It's nearly always left-leaning councils who hate on motorists.

I think there's a deeper hatred for personal independence. We all know socialists like people depending on the Government, so they want to ban private car ownership and have everyone rely on public transport. Sounds a bit far-fetched, but it's effectively what their communist utopia is all about.

RECr

352 posts

38 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Far be it for me to defend the types who hate cars in principle, but the practical problems of providing road space and parking in a growing city that was never designed for cars are real.

Also left wing councils tend to be very keen on bicycles, which are a pretty unregulated form of personal transport? How does that fit with wanting us all on the bus?

gt_12345

689 posts

22 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
RECr said:
Far be it for me to defend the types who hate cars in principle, but the practical problems of providing road space and parking in a growing city that was never designed for cars are real.

Also left wing councils tend to be very keen on bicycles, which are a pretty unregulated form of personal transport? How does that fit with wanting us all on the bus?
Cambridge (and probably Brighton) love bicycles, I'm not sure where else you had in mind?

And bicycles don't carry the same level of independence like a car. How far can you go on a bicycle, especially at night?

Dynion Araf Uchaf

3,882 posts

210 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Oxford County Council are big on this ( 20 mph). They've asked all of Oxfordshire's villages parish councillors to complete a consultation/survey with the residents. Where I live , the street through the village is now 20, but they now want to reduce the speed limit on another semi urban road to 20 as well ( from 30).

The stats don't back it up though, I've got a copy of the ATC data for the road, 2500 cars per day, 52% travel at 30 or less, 48 % at 31 or more. BUT, only 9.9% at 35 or more. Of which 2 cars did more than 50.

The biggest issues are that there are no 30 repeater signage, as identified in the highway code. However I think the HC needs updating, and the all roads should have repeater signs. Modern drivers are too distracted, but their cars are too refined, you knew you were doing 30 in a Metro because it was shaking or whining and generally noisey.

RSTurboPaul

9,126 posts

245 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
oyster said:
Tribal Chestnut said:
oyster said:
aceofspades1 said:
20mph at 2am on a 6-lane carriageway is pure evil.
Hoofy said:
It's all around me. Bit annoying when I'm driving at 1am
lobster940 said:
I speak as someone who was flashed the other day on an empty Vauxhall Bridge Road at 3am
Why are you expecting road speed limit policy to be applied for complete outlier cases?
Surely you meant ‘not to be applied’?
No. my wording is correct.

The above 3 posters are suggesting the revised limits are wrong as there is little risk of the existing speed limit at the times they are travelling.
My point is that TfL and the Police cannot, and indeed should not, apply policy based on extreme cases. And travelling at such times is an extreme case - it has to be, otherwise the roads wouldn't be empty at that time!
Travelling after midnight is 'an extreme case'?

Those evening and night workers better be careful or they'll get branded 'extremists' at this rate.


It does of course make perfect sense to impose and heavily enforce a fixed arbitrary lower limit that ignores traffic density, hazard density, observed 85th percentile speeds, the variability of traffic speeds in relation to traffic volume, levels of driver interest and interaction with the surrounding environment and other users, journey time increases and associated impacts...

I recall reading something along the lines of how communist / socialist governments like to invoke and enforce myriad minor laws in order to maintain a constant presence in the plebs' lives and 'encourage' compliance with diktats 'because'. Speed limits applied and enforced automatically without discretion would seem to tend towards this view of the world - 'you will comply with our rules at all times and will not exercise your own capacity to think because we say so, even when the rules obviously bear no relevance to the situation you are experiencing at a given moment in time'.