RE: EU floats draft proposal in synthetic fuel tussle
Discussion
Mr Happy said:
Rather than a complete ban on HC-based fuels, why not expand on the Ethanol market, with cars designed to run on E85-E90 (so 10-15% HC) possibly with software checks to see if the blend is weaker than, say E70 - the ECU drops down to a limp mode to "discourage use/prevent damage" if that's the ultimate aim.
There's a relative prevalence of E85 in the US, so there is infrastructure available and conversion kits could be manufacturer approved (injectors, flex sensor, fuel pumps, lines and a remap) to bring older cars into line - that way it wouldn't be a whole new ICE platform needing to be developed, just a reworking of the current kit.
There's probably myriad answers as to why not, but using it as a stop-gap measure before going into full HC-free synthetic fuels surely would help the transition into a post-HC fuel world?
Ethanol produces CO2, just like petrol.There's a relative prevalence of E85 in the US, so there is infrastructure available and conversion kits could be manufacturer approved (injectors, flex sensor, fuel pumps, lines and a remap) to bring older cars into line - that way it wouldn't be a whole new ICE platform needing to be developed, just a reworking of the current kit.
There's probably myriad answers as to why not, but using it as a stop-gap measure before going into full HC-free synthetic fuels surely would help the transition into a post-HC fuel world?
Ethanol is a hydrocarbon.
JJJ. said:
Porsche's efuel plant is in South America, located in one of the best locations to generate wind power. So, what would that have to do with pegged energy costs? I'm asking because I don't know.
At the risk of upsetting Neil again.....What you are effectively comparing is a Chilean wind turbine with a UK offshore one.
The UK one can supply you with electricity to charge your electric car and you will need to buy say 2000 units of electricity each year to cover 6000 miles.
The Chilean one will need to supply between 10,000 and possibly as high as 20,000 units of electricity to produce enough e-fuel to get you the same distance.
Not only that but you will need to pay for the incremental cost of the not-insignificant infrastructure to convert that electricity to hydrogen, collect CO2 from the atmosphere, and then blend it together and synthesise it into a long-chain hydrocarbon.
It also needs to be shipped halfway across the world to get to you.
Plenty of people, most overseas, will want to make lots of money from your desire to keep burning stuff.
Or you can buy energy from domestic resources and maybe have to live with higher unit cost but 5 to 10 times fewer units.
The domestic pathway will most likely result in a significantly smaller lifetime carbon footprint for your car, including the battery production.
What's your poison?
Sure it's a drop in the ocean that's produced from that Porsche plant. It is a after all an experimental project. But, if we want efuel and efuel derived from wind power it's a start. At least Porsche are not just talking about efuel but actually making it.
So, on that basis it has to be good development if similar projects take off and are scaled up. I see no downsides as the fuel gives car uses an option. How practical that option is , is another thing.
So, on that basis it has to be good development if similar projects take off and are scaled up. I see no downsides as the fuel gives car uses an option. How practical that option is , is another thing.
911hope said:
Mr Happy said:
Rather than a complete ban on HC-based fuels, why not expand on the Ethanol market, with cars designed to run on E85-E90 (so 10-15% HC) possibly with software checks to see if the blend is weaker than, say E70 - the ECU drops down to a limp mode to "discourage use/prevent damage" if that's the ultimate aim.
There's a relative prevalence of E85 in the US, so there is infrastructure available and conversion kits could be manufacturer approved (injectors, flex sensor, fuel pumps, lines and a remap) to bring older cars into line - that way it wouldn't be a whole new ICE platform needing to be developed, just a reworking of the current kit.
There's probably myriad answers as to why not, but using it as a stop-gap measure before going into full HC-free synthetic fuels surely would help the transition into a post-HC fuel world?
Ethanol produces CO2, just like petrol.There's a relative prevalence of E85 in the US, so there is infrastructure available and conversion kits could be manufacturer approved (injectors, flex sensor, fuel pumps, lines and a remap) to bring older cars into line - that way it wouldn't be a whole new ICE platform needing to be developed, just a reworking of the current kit.
There's probably myriad answers as to why not, but using it as a stop-gap measure before going into full HC-free synthetic fuels surely would help the transition into a post-HC fuel world?
Ethanol is a hydrocarbon.
Every type of vehicle will have some kind of CO2 footprint, be it BEV, fossil-fueled, e-fueled or even hydrogen-fueled...
Fastlane said:
But you will still be able to drive your Sunday car using petrol, as long as it wasn't built after 2035. Given another 12 years of EV development (imagine a 2035 Rimac/Bugatti), I doubt they'll be any market at all for non-EV supercars anyway, so this is all moot...
Right, so EVERYTHING I said about 'sound' just went clean over your head then? And I can't afford a Rimac or Bugatti now, pretty sure I'm not going to afford one in 12 years either (if I actually wanted one - which I don't!).To look at it another way:
As I write this, I am sitting on a balcony overlooking the Aegean in Turkey and one thing I am absolutely sure of from my wanderings around the streets here - there will be no dumping of ICE cars here ANY time soon. Last month I was in Sharm, Egypt........ not a hope in hell are EV's going to be clogging up the roads there any time soon either. Last year, I was in Morocco....... ICE, ICE baby, and in the Summer of 21, I was in all 7 countries of the former Yugoslavia, plus Hungary and Albania (yep, in a 'covid' year), and if you mention Tesla over there - they'll just point you in the direction of his museum in Belgrade.
Granted, you were tripping over EV's in Helsinki when I was there in August (and those f*****g electric scooters scattered all over the place too), but take the ferry over to Tallinn, in Estonia......... not a single plug socket to be seen anywhere. As far as other EU countries I've hit in the last year or so? Well, Athens and the island of Rhodes in Greece, mainland Spain and The Canaries are in absolutely no rush either from what I could see.
So after all that drivel, I'm pretty sure that with all these whisperings of peddling back within the dark corridors of the EU (with still 12 years to go), means in my mind, there's a fair bit of peddling back to go yet, because bugger all people are anywhere damn ready for it.
I'm assuming everyone has also heard of Asia, Africa and South America - homes to some of the fastest growing car markets on the planet? Yeah, you can be pretty sure there won't be many Semi-D's there getting chargepoints fitted any year soon, so pretty safe to say that when the world has FINALLY given up on the good aul Internal Combustion Engine and thrown everything in to the basket of EV's......... we'll all be long dead, so who gives a s****!!
Peace and love, peace and love.
As I write this, I am sitting on a balcony overlooking the Aegean in Turkey and one thing I am absolutely sure of from my wanderings around the streets here - there will be no dumping of ICE cars here ANY time soon. Last month I was in Sharm, Egypt........ not a hope in hell are EV's going to be clogging up the roads there any time soon either. Last year, I was in Morocco....... ICE, ICE baby, and in the Summer of 21, I was in all 7 countries of the former Yugoslavia, plus Hungary and Albania (yep, in a 'covid' year), and if you mention Tesla over there - they'll just point you in the direction of his museum in Belgrade.
Granted, you were tripping over EV's in Helsinki when I was there in August (and those f*****g electric scooters scattered all over the place too), but take the ferry over to Tallinn, in Estonia......... not a single plug socket to be seen anywhere. As far as other EU countries I've hit in the last year or so? Well, Athens and the island of Rhodes in Greece, mainland Spain and The Canaries are in absolutely no rush either from what I could see.
So after all that drivel, I'm pretty sure that with all these whisperings of peddling back within the dark corridors of the EU (with still 12 years to go), means in my mind, there's a fair bit of peddling back to go yet, because bugger all people are anywhere damn ready for it.
I'm assuming everyone has also heard of Asia, Africa and South America - homes to some of the fastest growing car markets on the planet? Yeah, you can be pretty sure there won't be many Semi-D's there getting chargepoints fitted any year soon, so pretty safe to say that when the world has FINALLY given up on the good aul Internal Combustion Engine and thrown everything in to the basket of EV's......... we'll all be long dead, so who gives a s****!!
Peace and love, peace and love.
GT9 said:
I've been asking that very question on the other thread, how would a post-2035 ICE be prevented from filling up with the normal stuff?
Special nozzles can probably be circumvented quite easily, so it seems something inherent in the engine or fuel system design would be required.
It seems like a lot of hot-air for a handful of post-2035 ICE owners that could actually afford the fuel.
There are no reports anywhere that suggest there will be enough e-fuel for anything more than a tiny % of cars.
How much cheaper are batteries vs 12 years ago?Special nozzles can probably be circumvented quite easily, so it seems something inherent in the engine or fuel system design would be required.
It seems like a lot of hot-air for a handful of post-2035 ICE owners that could actually afford the fuel.
There are no reports anywhere that suggest there will be enough e-fuel for anything more than a tiny % of cars.
TX.
I assume you've all watched Harry's video on eFuels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUiHafCdvM
You can already buy drums of the stuff, it's not cheap, but it's available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyUiHafCdvM
You can already buy drums of the stuff, it's not cheap, but it's available.
JJJ. said:
Sure it's a drop in the ocean that's produced from that Porsche plant. It is a after all an experimental project. But, if we want efuel and efuel derived from wind power it's a start. At least Porsche are not just talking about efuel but actually making it.
So, on that basis it has to be good development if similar projects take off and are scaled up. I see no downsides as the fuel gives car uses an option. How practical that option is , is another thing.
Even scaled up to their planned 50 million litres, it's still a drop in the ocean. There may be other producers, but it's still going to be tied into the global energy market. The situation in which the costs of electricity make this a financially sensible choice seems very unlikely.So, on that basis it has to be good development if similar projects take off and are scaled up. I see no downsides as the fuel gives car uses an option. How practical that option is , is another thing.
Arsecati said:
To look at it another way:
As I write this, I am sitting on a balcony overlooking the Aegean in Turkey and one thing I am absolutely sure of from my wanderings around the streets here - there will be no dumping of ICE cars here ANY time soon. Last month I was in Sharm, Egypt........ not a hope in hell are EV's going to be clogging up the roads there any time soon either. Last year, I was in Morocco....... ICE, ICE baby, and in the Summer of 21, I was in all 7 countries of the former Yugoslavia, plus Hungary and Albania (yep, in a 'covid' year), and if you mention Tesla over there - they'll just point you in the direction of his museum in Belgrade.
Granted, you were tripping over EV's in Helsinki when I was there in August (and those f*****g electric scooters scattered all over the place too), but take the ferry over to Tallinn, in Estonia......... not a single plug socket to be seen anywhere. As far as other EU countries I've hit in the last year or so? Well, Athens and the island of Rhodes in Greece, mainland Spain and The Canaries are in absolutely no rush either from what I could see.
So after all that drivel, I'm pretty sure that with all these whisperings of peddling back within the dark corridors of the EU (with still 12 years to go), means in my mind, there's a fair bit of peddling back to go yet, because bugger all people are anywhere damn ready for it.
I'm assuming everyone has also heard of Asia, Africa and South America - homes to some of the fastest growing car markets on the planet? Yeah, you can be pretty sure there won't be many Semi-D's there getting chargepoints fitted any year soon, so pretty safe to say that when the world has FINALLY given up on the good aul Internal Combustion Engine and thrown everything in to the basket of EV's......... we'll all be long dead, so who gives a s****!!
Peace and love, peace and love.
Brilliant post. I have noticed this too. As I write this, I am sitting on a balcony overlooking the Aegean in Turkey and one thing I am absolutely sure of from my wanderings around the streets here - there will be no dumping of ICE cars here ANY time soon. Last month I was in Sharm, Egypt........ not a hope in hell are EV's going to be clogging up the roads there any time soon either. Last year, I was in Morocco....... ICE, ICE baby, and in the Summer of 21, I was in all 7 countries of the former Yugoslavia, plus Hungary and Albania (yep, in a 'covid' year), and if you mention Tesla over there - they'll just point you in the direction of his museum in Belgrade.
Granted, you were tripping over EV's in Helsinki when I was there in August (and those f*****g electric scooters scattered all over the place too), but take the ferry over to Tallinn, in Estonia......... not a single plug socket to be seen anywhere. As far as other EU countries I've hit in the last year or so? Well, Athens and the island of Rhodes in Greece, mainland Spain and The Canaries are in absolutely no rush either from what I could see.
So after all that drivel, I'm pretty sure that with all these whisperings of peddling back within the dark corridors of the EU (with still 12 years to go), means in my mind, there's a fair bit of peddling back to go yet, because bugger all people are anywhere damn ready for it.
I'm assuming everyone has also heard of Asia, Africa and South America - homes to some of the fastest growing car markets on the planet? Yeah, you can be pretty sure there won't be many Semi-D's there getting chargepoints fitted any year soon, so pretty safe to say that when the world has FINALLY given up on the good aul Internal Combustion Engine and thrown everything in to the basket of EV's......... we'll all be long dead, so who gives a s****!!
Peace and love, peace and love.
Reading all these comments, it seams that most on here want nothing to stop the ICE ban! Which is odd for a site called PISTON heads?
Why not join the author in hoping that we don't all have to spend our lives waiting for a charger, as i saw a few doing today.
There is plenty of time to ramp up E Fuel production and hopefully ramp down the mad rush to EV hell. And if its CO neutral whats the problem?
Come on.....Honestly we are supposed to be petrol heads here!!! ( e fuel Heads then )
Why not join the author in hoping that we don't all have to spend our lives waiting for a charger, as i saw a few doing today.
There is plenty of time to ramp up E Fuel production and hopefully ramp down the mad rush to EV hell. And if its CO neutral whats the problem?
Come on.....Honestly we are supposed to be petrol heads here!!! ( e fuel Heads then )
GT9 said:
That was not intended to suggest you liked a drink, apologies if that's what you though I meant.
To me it's just an expression of choice.
I understand. But, honestly the question is ridiculous. It's the power's that be who will make the choice for both you, me and everybody else. So, you can promote BEV as much as you like and point out the unsuitability of efuel, it won't make a blind bit of difference.To me it's just an expression of choice.
JJJ. said:
GT9 said:
That was not intended to suggest you liked a drink, apologies if that's what you though I meant.
To me it's just an expression of choice.
I understand. But, honestly the question is ridiculous. It's the power's that be who will make the choice for both you, me and everybody else. So, you can promote BEV as much as you like and point out the unsuitability of efuel, it won't make a blind bit of difference.To me it's just an expression of choice.
otolith said:
Even scaled up to their planned 50 million litres, it's still a drop in the ocean. There may be other producers, but it's still going to be tied into the global energy market. The situation in which the costs of electricity make this a financially sensible choice seems very unlikely.
There must be some merit to it? I'm at a loss as why the likes of Porsche (Volkswagen) would bother. Time will tell no doubt.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff