Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
Panamax said:
I never cease to amazed how few hours a day/week/term kids actually spend attending state schools. To my mind that's one of the biggest differences, and it's not just about passing exams or getting into university. More opportunity to learn in the broadest sense.
Eh? I had to leave at 7am to get the bus and didn't get back until 5pm. I certainly wasn't anywhere else in the meantime. Throw in the several hours of homework and the demands of schooling seem outrageous looking back. I had the option of private school funded by a remote relative. I refused. At my state school I learned effectively nothing and I should've left formal education at 4 years old.
I had a great time.
I was at a stag do where half the attendees were the groom's university friends, privately educated to a tee. The other half were us scum. They didn't try, and certainly failed, to disguise their utter contempt for us which was highly amusing.
I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd paid for my offspring to wind up like them.
bloomen said:
Eh? I had to leave at 7am to get the bus and didn't get back until 5pm. I certainly wasn't anywhere else in the meantime. Throw in the several hours of homework and the demands of schooling seem outrageous looking back.
I had the option of private school funded by a remote relative. I refused. At my state school I learned effectively nothing and I should've left formal education at 4 years old.
I had a great time.
I was at a stag do where half the attendees were the groom's university friends, privately educated to a tee. The other half were us scum. They didn't try, and certainly failed, to disguise their utter contempt for us which was highly amusing.
I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd paid for my offspring to wind up like them.
How could they fail if they didn't try? I had the option of private school funded by a remote relative. I refused. At my state school I learned effectively nothing and I should've left formal education at 4 years old.
I had a great time.
I was at a stag do where half the attendees were the groom's university friends, privately educated to a tee. The other half were us scum. They didn't try, and certainly failed, to disguise their utter contempt for us which was highly amusing.
I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd paid for my offspring to wind up like them.
On the other point of how little time you spend at state school I would venture that fee paying schools are worse.
Longer holidays and half terms, plus Saturday school. As a parent that seems sub optimal given the costs of out of child care if you both work to afford the fees. And Saturday school is as much a chore for the parents as the children IMHO!
aparna said:
This decision is looming for me. I have the disposable cash and plan to spend it, but I'm going in blind, as none of my family went to private school. Something like 80% of my uni peers went to private school, and I never quite worked out, how much of that confidence and privilege was directly attributable to private school, and how much is simply growing up in a rich household.
Overall I got the feeling my dad's job title was more important to my status, than the school I went to.
I do wonder if I could personally spend the money more effectively without overly burdening myself as project manager. Sports classes, music lessons, holidays etc. Maybe there is an economies of scale that I can't compete with. Private will probably involve more taxiing so perhaps it's a wash. In terms of a better class of kid and networking, not sure that matters so much at primary? I'm fortunate in that the local primary is pretty decent and relatively small class sizes, so we do have a better set of choices.
No idea, basically.
I was in the same position as you,(I’m comp educated) I would advise you to visit a few schools, you will be shown around by students and will meet others during the visit, being exposed to these impressive young adults was pretty much enough to convince me it was what I wanted for my kids.Overall I got the feeling my dad's job title was more important to my status, than the school I went to.
I do wonder if I could personally spend the money more effectively without overly burdening myself as project manager. Sports classes, music lessons, holidays etc. Maybe there is an economies of scale that I can't compete with. Private will probably involve more taxiing so perhaps it's a wash. In terms of a better class of kid and networking, not sure that matters so much at primary? I'm fortunate in that the local primary is pretty decent and relatively small class sizes, so we do have a better set of choices.
No idea, basically.
Edited by aparna on Tuesday 26th October 11:59
And of course knowing that even if they didn’t make the most of their education (which they did) I had done the best I could for them.
Stick Legs said:
bloomen said:
Eh? I had to leave at 7am to get the bus and didn't get back until 5pm. I certainly wasn't anywhere else in the meantime. Throw in the several hours of homework and the demands of schooling seem outrageous looking back.
I had the option of private school funded by a remote relative. I refused. At my state school I learned effectively nothing and I should've left formal education at 4 years old.
I had a great time.
I was at a stag do where half the attendees were the groom's university friends, privately educated to a tee. The other half were us scum. They didn't try, and certainly failed, to disguise their utter contempt for us which was highly amusing.
I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd paid for my offspring to wind up like them.
How could they fail if they didn't try? I had the option of private school funded by a remote relative. I refused. At my state school I learned effectively nothing and I should've left formal education at 4 years old.
I had a great time.
I was at a stag do where half the attendees were the groom's university friends, privately educated to a tee. The other half were us scum. They didn't try, and certainly failed, to disguise their utter contempt for us which was highly amusing.
I wouldn't be best pleased if I'd paid for my offspring to wind up like them.
On the other point of how little time you spend at state school I would venture that fee paying schools are worse.
Longer holidays and half terms, plus Saturday school. As a parent that seems sub optimal given the costs of out of child care if you both work to afford the fees. And Saturday school is as much a chore for the parents as the children IMHO!
And for anyone complaining about Saturday AM schooling, I was sent to learn on Sat AM and all day Sunday at another school!
I think my best bet will be visiting them to get a feel, both private and the couple of states on my radar, and then obviously monitoring any decision I do make. I'm very sporty and not particularly academic, I'd have been far happier at the local private school (Lord Wandsworth) than the state, because despite my school actually having most things you could want for a state there just was not enough time in the week to do as much sport as I wanted - partly because the place finished at 2.20pm, so the importance of happiness is not overlooked.
It does feel as Stick Legs said a little though, the only currency the local schools at junior level have to trade on is what senior schools they got the kids into. And most of them are obviously quite academically focussed which does I think tend to lead to pushing everyone to be everything, when that is clearly not going to work.
I also 100% can see PhiboSE points, mostly about the bad rep potentially 98% of the fee paying sector get because of the few (Boris and co haven't helped!).
It does feel as Stick Legs said a little though, the only currency the local schools at junior level have to trade on is what senior schools they got the kids into. And most of them are obviously quite academically focussed which does I think tend to lead to pushing everyone to be everything, when that is clearly not going to work.
I also 100% can see PhiboSE points, mostly about the bad rep potentially 98% of the fee paying sector get because of the few (Boris and co haven't helped!).
My wife and I met at uni (poly) in 1994. Both of us went to state schools and come from working class families. We've got 4 kids now.
We are fairly ambitious and I spent 15 years working for myself as an IT contractor. I saved my money, and invested a lot on our house. When our eldest two kids got to secondary school age we sent them to private school. They have had a wonderful school life, full of opportunity and sporting actvitities. My eldest has always known that he lived a privilaged life and has done very well - he's going to study medicine. My daughter is less academic, and altough she enjoys the sports she doesn't think much of school at all. Don't know what she's going to do afterwards.
Sadly the IT contracting market has changed now, and now having a permanent job I really struggle to make ends meet. I live in debt now, and have borrowed from the bank to pay the final two years worth of school fees.
Our younger 2 boys will not be following their elder siblings. They will be going to the local school. Fortunately my wife and I are able to accept this change in lifestyle for our kids, but we were not strong enough to pull the older kids out of school so are struggling along. Only 1 year to go now though.
Some posters on here have said that they will be spending inheritance to put their kids through schoool. I would back this idea up - ONLY think about sending kids to private school if you have at least 100k tucked away for each child. If your child is bright, and your local state school is outstanding then save your money and stress and just send them there. For less bright children, send them to private school - but don't expect them to be transformed - they will just get more out of the peripheral activities and hopefully they will make the most of the chance.
We are fairly ambitious and I spent 15 years working for myself as an IT contractor. I saved my money, and invested a lot on our house. When our eldest two kids got to secondary school age we sent them to private school. They have had a wonderful school life, full of opportunity and sporting actvitities. My eldest has always known that he lived a privilaged life and has done very well - he's going to study medicine. My daughter is less academic, and altough she enjoys the sports she doesn't think much of school at all. Don't know what she's going to do afterwards.
Sadly the IT contracting market has changed now, and now having a permanent job I really struggle to make ends meet. I live in debt now, and have borrowed from the bank to pay the final two years worth of school fees.
Our younger 2 boys will not be following their elder siblings. They will be going to the local school. Fortunately my wife and I are able to accept this change in lifestyle for our kids, but we were not strong enough to pull the older kids out of school so are struggling along. Only 1 year to go now though.
Some posters on here have said that they will be spending inheritance to put their kids through schoool. I would back this idea up - ONLY think about sending kids to private school if you have at least 100k tucked away for each child. If your child is bright, and your local state school is outstanding then save your money and stress and just send them there. For less bright children, send them to private school - but don't expect them to be transformed - they will just get more out of the peripheral activities and hopefully they will make the most of the chance.
WhiskyDisco said:
Some posters on here have said that they will be spending inheritance to put their kids through schoool. I would back this idea up - ONLY think about sending kids to private school if you have at least 100k tucked away for each child. If your child is bright, and your local state school is outstanding then save your money and stress and just send them there. For less bright children, send them to private school - but don't expect them to be transformed - they will just get more out of the peripheral activities and hopefully they will make the most of the chance.
Sensibility in a nutshell. We were constantly told by the School that I was in the top 1.5% in the country academically. If that were the case, then I was Mr 1.499999999999% 
but I really appreciated the non-academic activities and how they shaped you to be a good moral citizen.I went to a large SE London public school in the late '70s. I definitely benefitted from the academic facilities they had (access to a computer a few years before it was normal), and that shaped my whole future career and life. The school put a lot of emphasis on sporting success (as opposed to participation and enjoyment), and had amazing sporting facilities, but I've never been any much good at sport, so that aspect didn't help me much. Overall I'd have to say that I did better in my career as a result of the opportunities I got from the school.
My kids were in the local village primary for a couple of years and then went to an academically selective private girls school up until GCSE. One of them I think ended up with better academic results than she'd have got in the decent local secondary school, but she also suffered with confidence issues as she tended to be towards the bottom of the academic ability scale there, which shouldn't be underestimated. Also, all girl environments can sometimes be fairly b
hy and unpleasant, it turns out. They both chose to go to 6th form college after that, and were much, much happier in that environment, socially and academically.I also agree that the "old school tie", networking thing is pretty much nonsense. On the other hand, I've noticed that people who went to Oxbridge typically like to recruit people who went to Oxbridge, so there is definitely an "old university tie" thing that goes on, at least in my industry.
WhiskyDisco said:
.....If your child is bright, and your local state school is outstanding then save your money and stress and just send them there. ...
I went to a boarding school - funded by the taxpayer as I'm an Army brat. I failed massively on the academic side of things and it took me a while after leaving to work my way back into higher education and find my way in the world.More through luck than judgement we ended up living in an affluent area in south east Berkshire, where the secondary school was outstanding and a real aspirational place. The pupils often out preformed the local private schools. This was a key part of our children's education and followed a local primary school.
Both our children did very well in the state school - our daughter has an LLB from a good Uni and is now doing her ACA in a big four grad scheme, our son has just started an MEng in Automotive Engineering. Both of them are embarrassing me with their achievements.
One of my daughter's privately educated peers, has just celebrated getting a job at the local Waitrose. Nothing wrong with that - both of our kids worked there to make some money to see them through Uni....
State schools are not always second rate, but it takes work to find a really good one.
Makes good sense yes. People travel for miles to go to schools like Tiffin in Kingston because it's obviously very good, and free. But we're not going to be moving house anytime soon, not least because the costs in doing so probably would pay for a large chunk of school anyway, and I'd be moving before I wanted to. Potentially it is an option for secondary, but tbh I have little interest living in Bucks or Kent which is where all the decent ones seem to be!
Edited by okgo on Tuesday 26th October 16:00
Times are definitely changing and certainly a private school education can now be more of a hindrance than a help in terms of getting into Oxbridge and indeed other leading universities. That said though, I went to a boarding Public School and will send my children to the same school if they get in.
Why? Because there'll always be someone cleverer than you. It's the other stuff that tends to make the difference in a career. I simply would not be where I am today (not that I'm any kind of big shot but I've done okay) were it not for seeing first-hand the brilliance of some of the pupils both in the classroom and outside and what can be achieved, the skills I learned via all the non-classroom stuff like acting and debating, the resilience that boarding in particular builds, and also it has to be said the old boy network which like it or not has proved unbelievably helpful and still is many years since I left.
Why? Because there'll always be someone cleverer than you. It's the other stuff that tends to make the difference in a career. I simply would not be where I am today (not that I'm any kind of big shot but I've done okay) were it not for seeing first-hand the brilliance of some of the pupils both in the classroom and outside and what can be achieved, the skills I learned via all the non-classroom stuff like acting and debating, the resilience that boarding in particular builds, and also it has to be said the old boy network which like it or not has proved unbelievably helpful and still is many years since I left.
outnumbered said:
I also agree that the "old school tie", networking thing is pretty much nonsense. On the other hand, I've noticed that people who went to Oxbridge typically like to recruit people who went to Oxbridge, so there is definitely an "old university tie" thing that goes on, at least in my industry.
Was certainly the same in my old industry (banking) too. I do feel like this is changing slowly though so likely to be less relevant in 20 years, especially given the focus on unconscious bias and not hiring your mini-me.zedstar said:
What do you want out of a private school?
Better education - possibly but IMO not likely, you are far better off investing in private tutors
Sports - far better facilities in private
Better environment - possibly yes. My school had students who were 'protected' because they played rugby and/or had rich influential parents but smaller classes can mean more focus on individual students
Improved peers - sad to to say but I think on some level being around high achievers and their families can be quite inspirational in a subtle way, one's norms adjust to a higher level
Better confidence for your child - I think so. I'm not a very confident person, but as a child of first generational immigrants i'm still regarded in our community as the one to take with you when you want to be taken seriously, cos 'they'll listen to him, he talks posh innit'
I would generally agree with this. I went to a rough-as-guts west of scotland comp and then a private school. My own kids are in a state primary. Better education - possibly but IMO not likely, you are far better off investing in private tutors
Sports - far better facilities in private
Better environment - possibly yes. My school had students who were 'protected' because they played rugby and/or had rich influential parents but smaller classes can mean more focus on individual students
Improved peers - sad to to say but I think on some level being around high achievers and their families can be quite inspirational in a subtle way, one's norms adjust to a higher level
Better confidence for your child - I think so. I'm not a very confident person, but as a child of first generational immigrants i'm still regarded in our community as the one to take with you when you want to be taken seriously, cos 'they'll listen to him, he talks posh innit'
We now live in London and we're lucky in having some good state primary and secondary options within reach, and intend to go there. The biggest negative for me tbh is sport, though in larger cities or places with a strong sport focus, you can make this happen outside the school also.
Okgo, given where you are if you can afford it then the private offering is pretty special. You’ve got some of the best schools in the country round there.
If I were in your position I’d definitely be looking at:
Prep/primary:
- Dulwich Prep
- Thomas’ Battersea
- St Pauls Juniors
- James Allen’s Juniors
Secondary
- Dulwich (Boys), JAGS (Girls), Alleyns (Mixed) (nb the Junior school attached to Dulwich is generally perceived to be inferior to Dulwich Prep above)
- Westminster
- KCS Wimbledon
- St Pauls Boys/Girls
If I were in your position I’d definitely be looking at:
Prep/primary:
- Dulwich Prep
- Thomas’ Battersea
- St Pauls Juniors
- James Allen’s Juniors
Secondary
- Dulwich (Boys), JAGS (Girls), Alleyns (Mixed) (nb the Junior school attached to Dulwich is generally perceived to be inferior to Dulwich Prep above)
- Westminster
- KCS Wimbledon
- St Pauls Boys/Girls
Yes. Registered for Thomas’s (Clapham as it’s closer) and have noted Dulwich Prep and Alleyns (JAGS jnr is girls I think?). Also registered at Eaton House which is the absolute closest. Barnes is a bit too far IMO. Not sure how wild I am on single sex education though.
Secondary wise I think possibly will be out of London by that point but maybe not, should have bought a house in Dulwich but I placed the annoyance of the st trains too highly 
Obviously all of those secondary’s are for people who are not thick. So time will tell.
All of the above are cheaper than nursery 5 days a week. That’s the world we live in. Bonkers.
Secondary wise I think possibly will be out of London by that point but maybe not, should have bought a house in Dulwich but I placed the annoyance of the s
t trains too highly Obviously all of those secondary’s are for people who are not thick. So time will tell.
All of the above are cheaper than nursery 5 days a week. That’s the world we live in. Bonkers.
I agree with the list, downside is that being very good schools the competition for places is ferocious. A "second tier" of schools should also be looked at.
Additionally, don't underestimate the convenience of having all your children at the same school. Getting child #1 into a highly selective or single sex school makes life more complicated if child #2 is a different gender or not at the same level academically.
Additionally, don't underestimate the convenience of having all your children at the same school. Getting child #1 into a highly selective or single sex school makes life more complicated if child #2 is a different gender or not at the same level academically.
okgo said:
Yes. Registered for Thomas’s (Clapham as it’s closer) and have noted Dulwich Prep and Alleyns (JAGS jnr is girls I think?). Also registered at Eaton House which is the absolute closest. Barnes is a bit too far IMO. Not sure how wild I am on single sex education though.
Secondary wise I think possibly will be out of London by that point but maybe not, should have bought a house in Dulwich but I placed the annoyance of the st trains too highly
Obviously all of those secondary’s are for people who are not thick. So time will tell.
All of the above are cheaper than nursery 5 days a week. That’s the world we live in. Bonkers.
Bear in mind that *none* of those are easy to get into or for thick kids. You’ll be looking at tutors to get them into those primaries. Unless the primary is a prep with guaranteed entry to the secondary you want, tutor again at that stage. Secondary wise I think possibly will be out of London by that point but maybe not, should have bought a house in Dulwich but I placed the annoyance of the s
t trains too highly Obviously all of those secondary’s are for people who are not thick. So time will tell.
All of the above are cheaper than nursery 5 days a week. That’s the world we live in. Bonkers.
Oh, and also expect to use a tutor for any weak GCSE and A level subjects.
Fee paying education becomes an “investment” in the sense that you can’t take the risk of not chucking more money at it to protect your sunk money. True story: one of our daughters’ mate’s parents paid for interview tuition post GCSE so she had a better chance of moving from one of the S London fee payers mentioned above to another one. £500 for that. We stumped up £300 for Oxbridge interview practice before one of our daughters decided that they didn’t fancy another three years of hot housing.
Believe me when I say this isn’t jaundice or disillusionment. It’s just how it is.
It’s not just a London thing either - we have friends in Winchester who have played the system to get into one of the right primary feeders for WC. And when the time comes they will almost certainly move to a local sixth form tech to whitewash the cv for Oxbridge entrance (btw: said friends were put off Thomas’ Battersea when they heard during their pre-application visit that one kid had taken his class on a birthday trip. To New York. Absolutely madness).
My wife and I both came from the state system and being from S. Yorks it wasn't great, but we both did well enough.
Looking back I especially was destined for the mines as that is what a secondary modern education did for you then.
With our daughter we saved so she could go to private school but the more we visited the less she and us felt it was right. Some of the kids we saw came from very wealthy families but were devoid of love and attention, especially the borders where parents were off around the world and the kids were almost abandoned.
In the end we left the choice to her and she chose to go to a local school who had an new ambitious head teacher. She did really well there and we used the money to employ tutors where she needed extra help. She is dyslexic so sometimes that extra enabled her to keep up with the top academics.
She got all her A levels and did a degree in Bio Medical Science and a medical degree afterwards. She now works as an anaesthetics Dr.
The only thing I feel she missed was the contacts that kids from the "upper class schools" for want of a description, seem to get.
It is finding what is best for each child as we know many who forced kids to go private and the outcome has been no better than a good state school.
The wider issue is why is there such a variation in standards in state schools which makes people think private is necessary
Looking back I especially was destined for the mines as that is what a secondary modern education did for you then.
With our daughter we saved so she could go to private school but the more we visited the less she and us felt it was right. Some of the kids we saw came from very wealthy families but were devoid of love and attention, especially the borders where parents were off around the world and the kids were almost abandoned.
In the end we left the choice to her and she chose to go to a local school who had an new ambitious head teacher. She did really well there and we used the money to employ tutors where she needed extra help. She is dyslexic so sometimes that extra enabled her to keep up with the top academics.
She got all her A levels and did a degree in Bio Medical Science and a medical degree afterwards. She now works as an anaesthetics Dr.
The only thing I feel she missed was the contacts that kids from the "upper class schools" for want of a description, seem to get.
It is finding what is best for each child as we know many who forced kids to go private and the outcome has been no better than a good state school.
The wider issue is why is there such a variation in standards in state schools which makes people think private is necessary
PhilboSE said:
I agree with the list, downside is that being very good schools the competition for places is ferocious. A "second tier" of schools should also be looked at.
Additionally, don't underestimate the convenience of having all your children at the same school. Getting child #1 into a highly selective or single sex school makes life more complicated if child #2 is a different gender or not at the same level academically.
Agree with all that, even though was made a conscious decision to use different schools. Additionally, don't underestimate the convenience of having all your children at the same school. Getting child #1 into a highly selective or single sex school makes life more complicated if child #2 is a different gender or not at the same level academically.
I think okgo said upthread he wasn’t sure about single sex schools in the first place. If so, in S London, that leaves a choice of Alleyns or Emanuel. Not much else I can think of off the top of my head.
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