'kin Hell - just what is the point of modern f1?

'kin Hell - just what is the point of modern f1?

Author
Discussion

nickfrog

18,938 posts

204 months

Wasn't the official plan to progressively tone down DRS as the positive effects of cleaner wake air allows more natural overtaking? It doesn't seem to be happening but I hope DRS can lose some of its power soon.

TheDeuce

16,996 posts

53 months

InformationSuperHighway said:
Stealthracer said:
I've been watching F1 for well over 50 years (first race I can remember was the '67 Dutch GP although there may have been earlier ones that I forgot) and I can honestly say I have never enjoyed it less.

My main problem is that there is no impression of speed. The cars all corner on rails, they don't move around in the slightest and you don't see the drivers fighting for control, just turn the wheel and round she goes.

Stirling Moss always said that there should be more power than the driver can handle, but despite the 1000hp (or whatever it is these days) I'm not seeing that.

The one single thing I would want to see, is getting rid of downforce, that has plagued motorsport for too many years.
All downforce? May be a bit of a problem hehe

I keep going back to it.. DRS is the problem.
DRS is the quick fix. The problem is wind tunnels and later CFD which means that all teams can basically build cars that are equal 'enough' to make catching possible but passing next to impossible.

You would have to remove so much from the engineers toolkit to return F1 to a time in which blokes went into a light industrial unit and 'figured it out' and the result was a grid full of very different cars, some of which could actually pass one another because they were stupidly better performing and faster. If that was actually done though, you would still fail to return the sport to what it was back then - because back then they were all looking for new tools to help them improve their car and they were free to do so. If we now remove such tools and freedom, it won't be what it was, it will be a well managed artists impression of what it was.

F1 has no option but to live in the current day, including all the various tools that have been discovered during its history. They can ban some things such as active suspension for sure - but if you remove aero from F1 now then it makes a mockery of the idea of designing the ultimate racing cars. Back when aero was poorly understood, they actually were the ultimate racing cars despite the lack or aero - but they can never be that again now.

HustleRussell

22,879 posts

147 months

HustleRussell said:
RB Will said:
Removing DRS alone or implementing it as above would be awful. Look how rare a non DRS pass is, that would be all you get.
The cars are so powerful and grippy that even if you get right on someone’s backside to an apex, them being able to get on the power a car length or two ahead gives them a 5 car length gap onto the next straight. DRS is there to overcome this gap.
The cars can already close within 1 second to get DRS, but usually do this by gaining say 0.2/0.3 sec a lap. For an overtake they need to be able to pull say 0.5 sec or more on one straight.
Take away DRS and you have to give them either half the power or crap tyres and brakes and more power, just make the cars harder to keep on the limit and have a few slides.
Alonso couldn’t pass Hamilton using DRS in Bahrain because he didn’t have enough straight line speed. That is the only reason we were treated to his amazing Turn 10 move.
RB Will said:
So you mean DRS isn’t a stupidly over powered tool that enables easy overtaking?
Is that what you think I mean?

Stealthracer

7,109 posts

165 months

Get rid of downforce and DRS will disappear with it. And won't be needed anyway.

TheDeuce

16,996 posts

53 months

Stealthracer said:
Get rid of downforce and DRS will disappear with it. And won't be needed anyway.
Look at all the points I made about why downforce can't realistically be removed at this stage - I posted above.

And you just reply to repeat what you want.. The whole purpose of a forum is to debate why what you want might not be possible or sensible. It's not a platform to repeatedly request the thing you want, nobody in power in reading this thread wink

Explain how you think it can possibly make sense for F1 to remove downforce 'today', please take into account the full effects of that decision, not just that it might also remove DRS...

vaud

47,334 posts

142 months

TheDeuce said:
Look at all the points I made about why downforce can't realistically be removed at this stage - I posted above.

And you just reply to repeat what you want.. The whole purpose of a forum is to debate why what you want might not be possible or sensible. It's not a platform to repeatedly request the thing you want, nobody in power in reading this thread wink

Explain how you think it can possibly make sense for F1 to remove downforce 'today', please take into account the full effects of that decision, not just that it might also remove DRS...
And the impact to all lower series, as they can't be faster than F1...

D_G

1,777 posts

196 months

105.4 said:
Born late 70’s as opposed to the OP’s late 60’s.

For the last few seasons all I’ve done is watch he quali and race highlights on YouTube for free.

I honestly don’t think I’m missing anything.
Indeed. I'm probably a decent demographic for F1, race myself, spend money to spectate at events, but pretty much no interest. Cars are mega quick, interesting tech etc but the 'racing' is dire. Years ago I'd have made an effort to watch live on TV, I've been and watched live in person at Silverstone but it really is crap now.

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

My real concern is that WEC is going to get close again as WSPC did in the past and Bernie saw to that very well.

He even got worried ion the 10's when Hulk went off to Le Mans and won the race that everyone wanted to win, so much so he made sure there was an F1 race on on the same date the year after. A huge piece of love had for F1 died that day too.

Isomehow doubt it will bring in mass fans like the current f1 superficial tripe has.

WEC is much harder to watch, has real racing, numerous classes that are not instantly clear to people and the strategy is often only really obvious at certain times.

But the big class is now getting very good.

And they also have the thing f1 crave the most. Several very good female drivers, Dorian Pin was magnificent at the weekend in her first prototype drive and the Iron Dames team were the pace setters with Corvette in the GT class and could have won it were it not for a daft error by one of the girls.

At the moment it has it all. Let's hope f1 do not see it as a threat.

Stealthracer

7,109 posts

165 months

My reasons for wishing to remove downforce are as follows:

! - cornering speeds reduced, therefore also removing the severity of accidents.

2 - Braking distances increased giving greater scope for overtaking into corners.

3 - No loss of downforce from following another car closely, even in corners.

4 - No more mashing the throttle through the firewall for 85% of the lap, drivers will have to use their skill to control the throttle instead, particularly when exiting corners.

5 - OK this one's a little frivolous, but cars look better without bits of aeroplane stuck all over them.


So you don't want to see all that? Well I do, it's my opinion, always has been and always will be. Nothing anyone says is going to change it.

TheDeuce

16,996 posts

53 months

Stealthracer said:
My reasons for wishing to remove downforce are as follows:

! - cornering speeds reduced, therefore also removing the severity of accidents.

2 - Braking distances increased giving greater scope for overtaking into corners.

3 - No loss of downforce from following another car closely, even in corners.

4 - No more mashing the throttle through the firewall for 85% of the lap, drivers will have to use their skill to control the throttle instead, particularly when exiting corners.

5 - OK this one's a little frivolous, but cars look better without bits of aeroplane stuck all over them.


So you don't want to see all that? Well I do, it's my opinion, always has been and always will be. Nothing anyone says is going to change it.
You're still listing 'wants' and getting defensive about it. I want those things too, in my ideal world. But it's just not realistic so I won't demand it. You can't make F1 tech advancements run in reverse when it comes to something so widely understood and utilised in F1 and the real world as aero and downforce.

On the first day, man learned how to make an engine. On the second day man learned how to make a car slippery, sticky and fast. These are fundamentals of how to make a racing car and I don't see how it's possible to remove the aero aspect and F1 still be F1.

It seems you can't understand that either as you repeat your wants instead of explaining how it can really work or make sense.

The designers at work from the days you enjoyed F1 at it's best, would all have deep dived into aero if they could.

Bradgate

2,691 posts

134 months

I’m of a similar vintage to you, OP, and I have been a F1 fan since 84. Since then I have watched the vast majority of races live. As anyone who knows their F1 history is well aware, the sport has always had eras in which the best team of the day was overwhelmingly dominant. Whether it was McLaren in the 80s, Williams in the 90s, Ferrari in the early 00s, Red Bull in the ‘blown diffuser’ era, then Mercedes in the 10s when their turbo hybrid power unit was 2 years of development ahead of everyone else.
Now, Red Bull are completely dominating the current generation of ground effect cars, because Newey is a genius. There is nothing new in any of this. Some seasons, like 2020 are one sided and boring. That was followed by 2021, which was one of the greatest in the history of the sport, until it was ruined by the fiasco in Abu Dhabi. This season we are back to one-sided and tedious. And that’s how it has always been.

paulguitar

19,239 posts

100 months

Bradgate said:
I’m of a similar vintage to you, OP, and I have been a F1 fan since 84. Since then I have watched the vast majority of races live. As anyone who knows their F1 history is well aware, the sport has always had eras in which the best team of the day was overwhelmingly dominant. Whether it was McLaren in the 80s, Williams in the 90s, Ferrari in the early 00s, Red Bull in the ‘blown diffuser’ era, then Mercedes in the 10s when their turbo hybrid power unit was 2 years of development ahead of everyone else.
Now, Red Bull are completely dominating the current generation of ground effect cars, because Newey is a genius. There is nothing new in any of this. Some seasons, like 2020 are one sided and boring. That was followed by 2021, which was one of the greatest in the history of the sport, until it was ruined by the fiasco in Abu Dhabi. This season we are back to one-sided and tedious. And that’s how it has always been.
Yup.




TheDeuce

16,996 posts

53 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Bradgate said:
I’m of a similar vintage to you, OP, and I have been a F1 fan since 84. Since then I have watched the vast majority of races live. As anyone who knows their F1 history is well aware, the sport has always had eras in which the best team of the day was overwhelmingly dominant. Whether it was McLaren in the 80s, Williams in the 90s, Ferrari in the early 00s, Red Bull in the ‘blown diffuser’ era, then Mercedes in the 10s when their turbo hybrid power unit was 2 years of development ahead of everyone else.
Now, Red Bull are completely dominating the current generation of ground effect cars, because Newey is a genius. There is nothing new in any of this. Some seasons, like 2020 are one sided and boring. That was followed by 2021, which was one of the greatest in the history of the sport, until it was ruined by the fiasco in Abu Dhabi. This season we are back to one-sided and tedious. And that’s how it has always been.
Yup.
A second yup from me.

Those looking to fix the sport need to remember the reality of the past, not just a few highlights.

F1 changes constantly - but frequency of exciting seasons hasn't changed at all imo.

C Lee Farquar

4,008 posts

203 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
The resurgence of Alonso has been sufficient on it's own to sustain my enthusiasm during the first two races.

'Yes! Bye-bye!' biglaugh

maz8062

1,907 posts

202 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
paulguitar said:
Bradgate said:
I’m of a similar vintage to you, OP, and I have been a F1 fan since 84. Since then I have watched the vast majority of races live. As anyone who knows their F1 history is well aware, the sport has always had eras in which the best team of the day was overwhelmingly dominant. Whether it was McLaren in the 80s, Williams in the 90s, Ferrari in the early 00s, Red Bull in the ‘blown diffuser’ era, then Mercedes in the 10s when their turbo hybrid power unit was 2 years of development ahead of everyone else.
Now, Red Bull are completely dominating the current generation of ground effect cars, because Newey is a genius. There is nothing new in any of this. Some seasons, like 2020 are one sided and boring. That was followed by 2021, which was one of the greatest in the history of the sport, until it was ruined by the fiasco in Abu Dhabi. This season we are back to one-sided and tedious. And that’s how it has always been.
Yup.
A second yup from me.

Those looking to fix the sport need to remember the reality of the past, not just a few highlights.

F1 changes constantly - but frequency of exciting seasons hasn't changed at all imo.
No. The difference is that in the past a team could spend the cash and catch up. Remember Schumacher in 2006, McLaren in 2009, RBR in 2021. F1 from 2022, with the cost cap, locks in any advantage until the next round of changes in 2026. There may be a shuffling of the order behind but RBR have it nailed until then and Max lacks charisma as a WDC.

Also, in the past if a team had cheated like RBR did in 2022 with the cost cap breach, they’d have been nobbled such that they wouldn’t be dominating the following season. That they’re upto a second faster than the rest despite the breach is a further slap in the face for all those hoping for a fair and open competition. Remember McLaren in 2007 and their penalty for cheating, BAR, Benneton?

I have Sky and an F1 subscription but didn’t bother watching quali nor the race last and I haven’t a clue when the next race is because I don’t care. There’s more fun to be had debating on the forums.

Castellet

62 posts

5 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
I actually found the scrap between Piastri, Sargeant and Norris more interesting.

But, sadly, F1 has sucked the media attention out of most other motorsport.

When I was a kid you could switch on Grandstand and the BBC outside broadcast could be showing F1 or Touring Cars or Sports Cars or the IOM TT or Rally Cross or the RAC or multiple other 2 or 4 wheel racing - even hill climbing.


Stealthracer

7,109 posts

165 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Castellet said:
... When I was a kid you could switch on Grandstand and the BBC outside broadcast could be showing F1 or Touring Cars or Sports Cars or the IOM TT or Rally Cross or the RAC or multiple other 2 or 4 wheel racing - even hill climbing.
I remember that!

(Although what I remember most is missing most of it, 'cos my Dad was sat there with the racing pages in his lap, switching over to the horses every 5 minutes.)

RB Will

8,716 posts

227 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Castellet said:
I actually found the scrap between Piastri, Sargeant and Norris more interesting.

But, sadly, F1 has sucked the media attention out of most other motorsport.

When I was a kid you could switch on Grandstand and the BBC outside broadcast could be showing F1 or Touring Cars or Sports Cars or the IOM TT or Rally Cross or the RAC or multiple other 2 or 4 wheel racing - even hill climbing.
Not sure about that. Used to get it handed to you like that due to a lack of channels. It is just spread out now. ITV do a good job with the BTCC with full race meeting coverage and highlights. Can’t remember if ITV or C4 do the IOM TT, but it will also be on Youtube this year. A lot of endurance stuff is on youtube as with most other things. Even my local track has a youtube stream for race days.
I’d say there has never been more media attention for everything.

There is less F1 on normal telly now than ever I think with just the C4 highlights available.

vaud

47,334 posts

142 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Stealthracer said:
My reasons for wishing to remove downforce are as follows:

! - cornering speeds reduced, therefore also removing the severity of accidents.

2 - Braking distances increased giving greater scope for overtaking into corners.

3 - No loss of downforce from following another car closely, even in corners.

4 - No more mashing the throttle through the firewall for 85% of the lap, drivers will have to use their skill to control the throttle instead, particularly when exiting corners.

5 - OK this one's a little frivolous, but cars look better without bits of aeroplane stuck all over them.


So you don't want to see all that? Well I do, it's my opinion, always has been and always will be. Nothing anyone says is going to change it.
No issue with any of these but you would also need to neuter the lower formulae as well.

RB Will

8,716 posts

227 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Castellet said:
I actually found the scrap between Piastri, Sargeant and Norris more interesting.

But, sadly, F1 has sucked the media attention out of most other motorsport.

When I was a kid you could switch on Grandstand and the BBC outside broadcast could be showing F1 or Touring Cars or Sports Cars or the IOM TT or Rally Cross or the RAC or multiple other 2 or 4 wheel racing - even hill climbing.
Not sure about that. Used to get it handed to you like that due to a lack of channels. It is just spread out now. ITV do a good job with the BTCC with full race meeting coverage and highlights. Can’t remember if ITV or C4 do the IOM TT, but it will also be on Youtube this year. A lot of endurance stuff is on youtube as with most other things. Even my local track has a youtube stream for race days.
I’d say there has never been more media attention for everything.

There is less F1 on normal telly now than ever I think with just the C4 highlights available.