Power of attorney for a dementia suffer
Discussion
The other thing to remember is there's a whole huge list of responsibilities with being POA, which you need to read, very carefully.
If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
Byker28i said:
The other thing to remember is there's a whole huge list of responsibilities with being POA, which you need to read, very carefully.
If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
This is so true - you must also and only act in the best interests of the donor at all times.I have " luckily " only got a few other relatives to worry about and have kept them informed of any large usage of the money ( selling their house ,purchasing an immediate needs annuity to pay for the bulk of the care home fee's, subsequent investments etc ) and have kept a rolling note of all money going in and out of the accounts.If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
I'm probably being over cautious of my duties but have also kept a note of any transfers to my own bank account when I have in the first instance used that to pay for smaller things.
One tip in this regard -as Attorney some Banks will also allow you a debit card and cheque book in your name on behalf of the donor per se and this certainly makes things an awful lot easier.
alscar said:
Byker28i said:
The other thing to remember is there's a whole huge list of responsibilities with being POA, which you need to read, very carefully.
If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
This is so true - you must also and only act in the best interests of the donor at all times.I have " luckily " only got a few other relatives to worry about and have kept them informed of any large usage of the money ( selling their house ,purchasing an immediate needs annuity to pay for the bulk of the care home fee's, subsequent investments etc ) and have kept a rolling note of all money going in and out of the accounts.If you spend any money at all then you may need to account for it, especially if other family members don't like you being POA and make false accusations.
I'm probably being over cautious of my duties but have also kept a note of any transfers to my own bank account when I have in the first instance used that to pay for smaller things.
One tip in this regard -as Attorney some Banks will also allow you a debit card and cheque book in your name on behalf of the donor per se and this certainly makes things an awful lot easier.
Once again thanks all.
Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
oblio said:
Once again thanks all.
Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
So, the nursing home fees are less than her DWP pension ?Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
oblio said:
Once again thanks all.
Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
There could well be weekly / monthly “ pocket money “ required by MIL though. Where we are now is that Mrs O has opened a separate bank account. When she gets appointed as the appointee for her mothers pension by the DWP (in hand), she can get that pension paid into this new account. The fees for the nursing home will then go out each week, after the pension has gone in. The account will not be used for anything else and there will be a monthly paper statement which will be filed so that all is in order.
In this way there should be no need to access her mother's main bank account at all. The MiL has no costs aside from the nursing home really. If there is a need for a sundries fund, then this can also be set up and be paid to the nursing home as well, out of this new account.
We are hoping that this will obviate the need for the who Court/Protection/Deputyship thing.
Whether for books , magazines , cigarettes , hairdresser , optician etc.
I was “ surprised “ how much this adds up to.
Yes the fees are less than her pension. She is allowed to keep a certain amount of her pension albeit a small amount.
Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
Edited by oblio on Tuesday 21st March 07:47
oblio said:
Yes the fees are less than her pension. She is allowed to keep a certain amo8int of her pension albeit a small amount.
Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
She either has a huge pension or that’s a low care home cost but either way sounds like you have it covered. Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
My relatives annual fees have just increased to £60k pa - obviously wouldn’t work but I reckon a long term deal in say a 3 star hotel would be cheaper !
alscar said:
oblio said:
Yes the fees are less than her pension. She is allowed to keep a certain amo8int of her pension albeit a small amount.
Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
She either has a huge pension or that’s a low care home cost but either way sounds like you have it covered. Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
My relatives annual fees have just increased to £60k pa - obviously wouldn’t work but I reckon a long term deal in say a 3 star hotel would be cheaper !
geeman237 said:
alscar said:
oblio said:
Yes the fees are less than her pension. She is allowed to keep a certain amo8int of her pension albeit a small amount.
Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
She either has a huge pension or that’s a low care home cost but either way sounds like you have it covered. Yes, we'll set up a slush fund for her as well but as she is bed ridden and doesn't smoke, it'll not amount to much. After her fees are taken she should have 35 quid a week left, so that'll cover incidentals like Werther's originals etc
My relatives annual fees have just increased to £60k pa - obviously wouldn’t work but I reckon a long term deal in say a 3 star hotel would be cheaper !
RealMrPorter said:
alscar said:
geeman237 said:
I had similar with my mum when I knew things seemed to indicate dementia wasn’t far away or at least early stages.
I got POA sorted via mum’s solicitor without issue.
The part I questioned and never got a straight answer on was who, how and when was it determined the person doesn’t have capacity any longer? Sufferers can have moments of being ok and rational then not. I found it a very grey area.
OP, I’d urge you to ask around for assistance on determining her capacity. It may not be too late.
Best of luck.
+1 - this sounds a very sensible approach. I had similar circumstances with an elderly relative and my chosen solicitor went to see her in the care home and decided that she was still of sound enough mind to sign the LPA. I got POA sorted via mum’s solicitor without issue.
The part I questioned and never got a straight answer on was who, how and when was it determined the person doesn’t have capacity any longer? Sufferers can have moments of being ok and rational then not. I found it a very grey area.
OP, I’d urge you to ask around for assistance on determining her capacity. It may not be too late.
Best of luck.
I suspect that had we left it much longer we would have had an issue.
Good luck in sorting.
The process of appointing LPA’s through the court of protection is painfully slow and so the person needing decisions made for them, and about their affairs, can suffer. It’s not a great system for anyone involved.
A straight LPA allows the donee to act whilst the donor still has capacity. Some donors want and some solicitors advise that the LPA only becomes active once the donor lacks capacity.
In some family circumstances you can understand why it's a precondition but in many circumstances it leads to an additional hurdle to getting the power. Getting an opinion on lacking capacity for financial affairs is something most GPs steer well clear of. This is a shame because they might be recognised and trusted by the donee and in most cases the test is straightforward. Most doctors mess up by not using standardised test; not engaging with the parties involved and not recording their examination adequately. So it tends to get referred to folks like me. Unfortunately for some families, this is the point where a hitherto cooperative and sensible donor can become suspicious and truculent so even setting up an assessment becomes tricky.
There are rare occasions where under very specific circumstances I've supported LPA for someone who is quite unwell (ie. one of my patients in hospital on a section of the MHA) but they still recognise their family members; have a broad understanding of what they own and have a simple family structure and a clear wish that their affairs are managed by said family member - ie no potential for conflict. In those circumstances it's been possible to get a family solicitor (ideally a STEP) practitioner to the ward and do a joint assessment to achieve a pragmatic outcome in they way it sounds like the practitioners involved achieved for Alscar.
My particular area of clinical expertise, legal qualifications, experience and caution means my opinion would be very unlikely to be challenged. Anticipating the PMs I usually get after outing myself in this way - I've retired from this work - it's not particularly interesting and most are not prepared to pay what it takes to get a bulletproof opinion.
TLDR - get yours/theirs sorted out ASAP and have a hard think about whether it's really necessary to reserve donee powers until after you/they've lost your/their marbles.
Edited by oddman on Tuesday 21st March 08:24
oddman said:
Specialist psychiatrist/expert witness here.
A straight LPA allows the donee to act whilst the donor still has capacity. Some donors want and some solicitors advise that the LPA only becomes active once the donor lacks capacity.
In some family circumstances you can understand why it's a precondition but in many circumstances it leads to an additional hurdle to getting the power. Getting an opinion on lacking capacity for financial affairs is something most GPs steer well clear of. This is a shame because they might be recognised and trusted by the donee and in most cases the test is straightforward. Most doctors mess up by not using standardised test; not engaging with the parties involved and not recording their examination adequately. So it tends to get referred to folks like me. Unfortunately for some families, this is the point where a hitherto cooperative and sensible donor can become suspicious and truculent so even setting up an assessment becomes tricky.
There are rare occasions where under very specific circumstances I've supported LPA in a patient who is quite unwell (eg in hospital on a section of the MHA) but they still recognise their family members; have a broad understanding of what they own and have a simple family structure and a clear wish that their affairs are managed by said family member - ie no potential for conflict. In those circumstances it's been possible to get a family solicitor (ideally a STEP) practitioner to the ward and do a joint assessment to achieve a pragmatic outcome in they way it sounds like the practitioners involved achieved for Alscar.
My particular area of clinical expertise, legal qualifications, experience and caution means my opinion would be very unlikely to be challenged. Anticipating the PMs I usually get after outing myself in this way - I've retired from this work - it's not particularly interesting and most are not prepared to pay what it takes to get a bulletproof opinion.
TLDR - get yours/theirs sorted out ASAP and have a hard think about whether it's really necessary to reserve donee powers until after you/they've lost your/their marbles.
Thanks for that, it ties in well with my experiences.A straight LPA allows the donee to act whilst the donor still has capacity. Some donors want and some solicitors advise that the LPA only becomes active once the donor lacks capacity.
In some family circumstances you can understand why it's a precondition but in many circumstances it leads to an additional hurdle to getting the power. Getting an opinion on lacking capacity for financial affairs is something most GPs steer well clear of. This is a shame because they might be recognised and trusted by the donee and in most cases the test is straightforward. Most doctors mess up by not using standardised test; not engaging with the parties involved and not recording their examination adequately. So it tends to get referred to folks like me. Unfortunately for some families, this is the point where a hitherto cooperative and sensible donor can become suspicious and truculent so even setting up an assessment becomes tricky.
There are rare occasions where under very specific circumstances I've supported LPA in a patient who is quite unwell (eg in hospital on a section of the MHA) but they still recognise their family members; have a broad understanding of what they own and have a simple family structure and a clear wish that their affairs are managed by said family member - ie no potential for conflict. In those circumstances it's been possible to get a family solicitor (ideally a STEP) practitioner to the ward and do a joint assessment to achieve a pragmatic outcome in they way it sounds like the practitioners involved achieved for Alscar.
My particular area of clinical expertise, legal qualifications, experience and caution means my opinion would be very unlikely to be challenged. Anticipating the PMs I usually get after outing myself in this way - I've retired from this work - it's not particularly interesting and most are not prepared to pay what it takes to get a bulletproof opinion.
TLDR - get yours/theirs sorted out ASAP and have a hard think about whether it's really necessary to reserve donee powers until after you/they've lost your/their marbles.
I still just wish many more people would take out a LPA earlier in their lives. Far too many only start considering such issues when the problem has arrived already.
Vasco said:
Thanks for that, it ties in well with my experiences.
I still just wish many more people would take out a LPA earlier in their lives. Far too many only start considering such issues when the problem has arrived already.
Absolutely - I can't say I wanted to be my relatives LPA ( the whole story is really quite sad and involves having to get involved with debt collectors ,HMRC and the Council ) but I've learnt an awful lot about how to deal with these things and there was no-one else in my family prepared to take it on.It has also ensured that my Mother and both my in-laws have LPA's ready in place.We also did ours a few years ago.I still just wish many more people would take out a LPA earlier in their lives. Far too many only start considering such issues when the problem has arrived already.
vonhosen said:
Vasco said:
I feel that ALL adults should draw up a Power of Attorney. You can often do it yourself - and it can prove essential.
Yes, they should indeed.Myself and my wife took them out (both the finance and the health ones) after my wife suffered a breakdown around 4 years ago. We named each other as the first point of contact and then our son as the second person for both of us. This in the main was inspired by the way my wife's eldest son acted during her illness and we decided that his 'bedside manner' wouldn't be in our best interests if we were ill!
PianoManYork said:
vonhosen said:
Vasco said:
I feel that ALL adults should draw up a Power of Attorney. You can often do it yourself - and it can prove essential.
Yes, they should indeed.DickyC said:
PianoManYork said:
vonhosen said:
Vasco said:
I feel that ALL adults should draw up a Power of Attorney. You can often do it yourself - and it can prove essential.
Yes, they should indeed.When your mother became inacapable of managing her own affairs it should gave been straightforward for you to take over.
If you never received any relevant paperwork I guess she never completed the process.
Vasco said:
There's something not quite right there. If the PoA was fully completed, and registered, you and your brother would have received formal paperwork outlining your involvement, responsibilities etc.
When your mother became inacapable of managing her own affairs it should gave been straightforward for you to take over.
If you never received any relevant paperwork I guess she never completed the process.
You may well be right. It was all done through a firm of solicitors who told us they needed mum's agreement to allow us to act for her. They were monumentally unhelpful. The point I was hoping to make is it may not be as straightforward as it appears. The solicitors told us they were acting for mum, not for us, and her interests came first. Very frustrating. They just needed her agreement to allow the PoA to commence and she wouldn't let go. When your mother became inacapable of managing her own affairs it should gave been straightforward for you to take over.
If you never received any relevant paperwork I guess she never completed the process.
I'll see if I can find the papers to quote the problem as the solicitors saw it.
DickyC said:
You may well be right. It was all done through a firm of solicitors who told us they needed mum's agreement to allow us to act for her. They were monumentally unhelpful. The point I was hoping to make is it may not be as straightforward as it appears. The solicitors told us they were acting for mum, not for us, and her interests came first. Very frustrating. They just needed her agreement to allow the PoA to commence and she wouldn't let go.
I'll see if I can find the papers to quote the problem as the solicitors saw it.
That really doesn’t sound right at all and as Vasco said once you as the donee has received the paperwork and registration from the OPG you are “good to go “ when needed. I'll see if I can find the papers to quote the problem as the solicitors saw it.
I wonder if the Solicitors in your Mum’s case had also been added to said POA though - I only say this as when my Mum did hers the Solicitor wanted to hang onto all the originals ( we had received all the necessary paperwork ) and told my Mum it was safer that way !
I now have the originals and hopefully won’t need them although I’m not over confident sadly.
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