Difficulty is fun lol

Difficulty is fun lol

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Discussion

LukeBrown66

Original Poster:

3,763 posts

33 months

Wednesday
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I am an old school gamer, been at it since the Spectrum, Amiga days.

And I am finding this endless difficulty is fun garbage very tiring.

I know it works for some people, God knows why but being endlessly killed in stuff like Bloodborne and Dark Souls (repeat endlessly since) is apparently challenging and fun.

I do not, I find creative game design to be fun and challenging, not just upping difficulty to an insane state. Yes that is harder to do and takes more time, but the reward is right there, Half Life, Fallout, Skyrim, GTA, Red Dead, Destiny series etc etc. Games that were hard if you wanted them to be, but were mainly story based and long

It also rather stupidly tosses people who play casually on the dirt pile and is basically elitist. "You are not good enough, you are not welcome you might aswell uninstall this"

OK thanks, that was my plan. What kind of developer would do this and NOT try and include as many people as possible? it works for Nintendo and so many other people, why not try and make every game like this?

Difficulty should be a scale, but increasingly it seems to start at madness and go on to ever more insane levels. And developers think just because a tiny minority can complete this, that means we have to make it harder!

Mastodon2

13,671 posts

152 months

Wednesday
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Sounds like a skill issue.

mmm-five

10,607 posts

271 months

Wednesday
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Simple solution, just don't buy/play the stuff you don't like.

I don't like FPS game, so stay away from things like CoD MW, Fortnite, PUGB, Tarkov, etc.

MCBrowncoat

697 posts

133 months

Wednesday
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I agree Luke.

I think I put about 200 hours into Elden Ring (difficult to tell, the hours played value on the homepage seems woefully inaccurate as it says 23 hours...) and got to only to the Academy in the Liurnia of the Lakes area, which I understand isn't that far. At this point I was coming to the conclusion that I couldn't be bothered. I'd given it a fair chance. But it was just: open up a new area, level up a bit, then try and get through a boss or area, then repeat.

I spoke to a friend who was much further through than me, who said it does get easier - at the stage he was at.

But then I also read it ramps up dramatically in difficulty at the end

I just could not imagine myself sat there in many months time maybe being 500 hours in being annoyed at the difficulty still. Just not worth it for me

Thing is, if you:

1) Took away losing all your st when you died then having to try a claw it back...
2) Could save more often..
3) Could dial down the difficulty

...would it be a worse game? Because I'm not sure it would be, but many would say it would. Which for me is an indicator that all it is is purposely difficult...

And what an exercise! The aesthetics of some of the areas I have seen - but that I personally never got to - look incredible. But a lot of people will never experience them because they sent it back or got bored like me. Isn't that weird?!! A huge portion of this game you created a reasonable proportion of your players will never experience?!!

And I never felt after I beat a boss that "Oh my god this game does things no other can, the sense of achievement..." it was just, thank fk for that, what's next?

Just an odd experience. Too many other games to play

point

39 posts

56 months

Wednesday
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Well, to me it has been fun in a challenging sort of way, but it seems to me that game editors have been using difficulty to compensate for their general lack of creativity. These days games feel all very similar to me with a few main formats - FPS, action adventures, sports/race, and that's about it. It's not a few new skins and vaguely rehashed stories that have changed much in the last 10 years. The Witcher 3 was a bit of a miracle that was more than the sum of its parts, but most others games have been the opposite. HZD was good too. Bloodborne was ok for its atmosphere nevermind the difficulty but ultimately lacked consistency like most of the Souls game.

Edited by point on Wednesday 22 March 11:49

Jasandjules

68,607 posts

216 months

Wednesday
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I agree. I am both old and rubbish at gaming despite my hours invested in it.

Therefore a game that I will only spend a few hours on and get stuck with some end of first level monster never to be defeated means the money spent on it is wasted. A bit like buying a book, getting to the end of chapter 1 and the books says "Sorry, you can't go any further until you pass a test on the last chapter"..

Whereas fallout/skyrim/far cry etc you spend hours mooching about, doing little missions and saving the game.... Far better value for money for me.

EmailAddress

9,690 posts

205 months

Wednesday
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The original Last of Us and Celeste have some of the best balance, accommodations, and options that I've come across for difficulty.

Really let's you play as you wish, while still getting the maximum out of the game and never floundering too long.

Richyvrlimited

1,795 posts

150 months

Wednesday
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EmailAddress said:
The original Last of Us and Celeste have some of the best balance, accommodations, and options that I've come across for difficulty.

Really let's you play as you wish, while still getting the maximum out of the game and never floundering too long.
Add Control and Hades to that list, control especially allows you to be really granular with assistance

Dave Hedgehog

14,388 posts

191 months

Wednesday
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mmm-five said:
Simple solution, just don't buy/play the stuff you don't like.

I don't like FPS game, so stay away from things like CoD MW, Fortnite, PUGB, Tarkov, etc.
This, I avoid any souls type game or game where you have to repeat sections to get back to the boss again on death, or the boss resets on death

they are just mindless dirge


add linear games like jedi fallen order, I was bored before I even got to the end of the scrap yard

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 22 March 13:45

Zetec-S

5,139 posts

80 months

Wednesday
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"All you had to do was follow the damn train CJ"

lizardbrain

1,427 posts

24 months

Wednesday
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I do like games with decent online matchmaking, for this reason.

Generally you win about half of the time. And lose half of the time.

Unless you meet smurfs it always feels fair

CrutyRammers

13,230 posts

185 months

Wednesday
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Dave Hedgehog said:
mmm-five said:
Simple solution, just don't buy/play the stuff you don't like.

I don't like FPS game, so stay away from things like CoD MW, Fortnite, PUGB, Tarkov, etc.
This, I avoid any souls type game or game where you have to repeat sections to get back to the boss again on death, or the boss resets on death

they are just mindless dirge


add linear games like jedi fallen order, I was bored before I even got to the end of the scrap yard

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 22 March 13:45
Agree, it seems a very old fashioned approach to games design to me, one I thought things had gone beyond. Games used to be like that because there wasn't the capability to make them more clever. That said, it clearly has a great appeal for lots of people, so it's become a genre in its own right and that's all good.

I much prefer games where they create a world and you get emergent behaviour, rather than these heavily scripted things. I do like a multiplayer FPS for that reason, but I'm getting worse at those as I get older - or rather, don't invest the time in them in order to be good. I'm getting more casual but I don't see that as a bad thing. These days I prefer the more thinky type of game where you can take your time. Oxygen not included is my fave example at the moment. I doubt many would claim that's not hard, but the difficulty comes from consequences of your decisions, not just because you missed a move in a scripted sequence.


shouldbworking

4,743 posts

199 months

Wednesday
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You'll enjoy this comedy skit about designing escape from tarkov by the sounds of it

https://youtu.be/NzaNzJnh9l8

I think game designers must think there's more value in narcissists who will play forever to stay top of the ladder rather than having a larger but more transient player base

ZedLeg

6,548 posts

95 months

Wednesday
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CrutyRammers said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
mmm-five said:
Simple solution, just don't buy/play the stuff you don't like.

I don't like FPS game, so stay away from things like CoD MW, Fortnite, PUGB, Tarkov, etc.
This, I avoid any souls type game or game where you have to repeat sections to get back to the boss again on death, or the boss resets on death

they are just mindless dirge


add linear games like jedi fallen order, I was bored before I even got to the end of the scrap yard

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 22 March 13:45
Agree, it seems a very old fashioned approach to games design to me, one I thought things had gone beyond. Games used to be like that because there wasn't the capability to make them more clever. That said, it clearly has a great appeal for lots of people, so it's become a genre in its own right and that's all good.

I much prefer games where they create a world and you get emergent behaviour, rather than these heavily scripted things. I do like a multiplayer FPS for that reason, but I'm getting worse at those as I get older - or rather, don't invest the time in them in order to be good. I'm getting more casual but I don't see that as a bad thing. These days I prefer the more thinky type of game where you can take your time. Oxygen not included is my fave example at the moment. I doubt many would claim that's not hard, but the difficulty comes from consequences of your decisions, not just because you missed a move in a scripted sequence.
It's horses for courses. You can tell a better story in a game with tight level design as you don't have to worry about people getting lost or skipping something. Open world game stories are always a little underwhelming in comparison.

Most of my favourite games are in the former category but I've also spent 100s of hours in big open world games wandering around.

PhilboSE

3,565 posts

213 months

Wednesday
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Games being hard for being hard do nothing for me. I far prefer games that draw me in and allow me to enhance my skills over time - like Horizon:Zero Dawn lets you take on the machines using brute force, traps or careful targetting of weak spots. I've also really enjoyed Sniper Elite 4 recently (free on PS+), which plays vastly differently depending on the difficulty setting and not because the opponents have bigger health bars, it's because it becomes more realistic and the enemy AI is ramped up.

Elden Ring sounds like a game which is total anathema to my preferred playstyle.

Douglas Quaid

2,004 posts

72 months

Wednesday
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Dave Hedgehog said:
mmm-five said:
Simple solution, just don't buy/play the stuff you don't like.

I don't like FPS game, so stay away from things like CoD MW, Fortnite, PUGB, Tarkov, etc.
This, I avoid any souls type game or game where you have to repeat sections to get back to the boss again on death, or the boss resets on death

they are just mindless dirge


add linear games like jedi fallen order, I was bored before I even got to the end of the scrap yard

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 22 March 13:45
I was with you til you said about Jedi fallen order. That is a really great game and isn’t actually linear once you get past the intro.

RichFN2

2,934 posts

166 months

Wednesday
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I will be honest Elden Ring has blown me away, it didn't to begin with but once I understood how to level up, upgrade your weapons and buy better armour etc it became more enjoyable. The most important thing for me is the open world element and that is what I enjoy the most.

Elden Ring, AC Valhalla and Far Cry 6 are recent games I have enjoyed mainly due to the huge open world design and the way you upgrade and improve. If you are stuck you can simply skip that part and come back once you have improved.

In contrast to the last GOW game where I kept dying early on and simply gave up.

LukeBrown66

Original Poster:

3,763 posts

33 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
I understand it is appealing to some.

And I do like a challenge, but sometimes it goes too far.

The Souls stuff, Monster Hunter etc I do not understand this largely Japanese trend for making games bloody impossible and basically forcing you to die endlessly to l;earn patterns and how a boss does what he does.

Is that fun? Is that challenging, in a way yes but it is also very forced.

It happens in all sorts of games, I have found it in sims, where you just get these impossible challenges and opponents just to unlock something very mundane, and eventually there are endless clips on how to do it etc.

If game design is so bad it takes other people to even show you how, that is just that, very bad game design. Often I will be standing there and have no clue whatsoever what to do or how to do it, that is pure laziness in my eyes.

I appreciate games are like art, some will hate what some will love, but I do think this difficulty is fun epidemic is starting to appear everywhere and it is not a good thing.

I also blame streamers, these people are doted on endlessly because they often make their living playing games and doing things only very few can achieve, devs love them as they show content and have thousands of subs.

This not hot to market a game, it IS how to do it for sod all, but it should NOT form the way the game is built, these people are very unique and do not represent the vast majority of people who play.

Steven_RW

1,588 posts

189 months

Yesterday (00:04)
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Dave Hedgehog said:
This, I avoid any souls type game or game where you have to repeat sections to get back to the boss again on death, or the boss resets on death

they are just mindless dirge
Mindless dirge? I exceedingly rarely use the laughing crying emoji but this is worthy.

Hoofy

74,459 posts

269 months

Yesterday (00:45)
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Online FPS can be difficult especially when you're old, you don't have state of the art kit and your mouse sometimes doesn't let you rotate right. biggrin So going head to head against someone half my age is going to result in my death most of the time.

So, I use my head, learn the map and know the best places to camp or expect the enemy. I work out the places where it's narrow and wait on the other side.

I can get pretty decent KDRs. Last 3 rounds: 54:16, 23:8, 20:6.

It's no longer spawn, die, spawn, die, spawn, die. Sure, you'll never see me in the top 3 but I don't care.

That said, I can do well in tight skirmishes when I have to. Just that it's easier to use my head. biggrin