World Athletics transgender women ban
Discussion
BikeBikeBIke said:
E63eeeeee... said:
Only if you're easily persuaded by people asking disingenuously over-simplistic questions.
It's not really over simplistic is it?There are two valid definitions of woman:
1) The one your doctor would use.
2) Someone who self identifies as a woman.
Now age, that's complicated.... Very few people *feel* *exactly* their age.
What’s your definition?
BikeBikeBIke said:
chrispmartha said:
He wasn’t asked ‘what is a woman’ though
What’s your definition?
Whatever he was asked required a definition of woman. This whole debate hinges on definitions.What’s your definition?
My definition? I have two, I stated them.
He was asked can a woman have a Penis.
Personally I would have just answered yes a Transwoman can’
chrispmartha said:
Precisely
You can agree that it's up to the governing body of a sport to decide who is allowed to participate and still think that Transwomen are women - the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I've no issue with a governing body making these decisions.
Gender is a complex issue and the question that Kier Starmer was asked was a simplistic one and designed as a 'gotcha'
This is what happened.
"Speaking to LBC’s Nick Ferrari during a phone-in, Sir Keir, the Labour leader, was asked multiple times whether or not “a woman can have a penis”.
“I don’t think that discussing this issue in this way helps anyone in the long run,” he said.
“What I want to see is a reform of the law as it is, but I am also an advocate of safe spaces for women and I want to have a discussion that is... Anybody who genuinely wants to find a way through this, I want to discuss that with. I do find that too many people – in my view – retreat or hold a position of which is intolerant of others.
“And that’s not picking on any individual at all, but I don’t like intolerance, I like open discussion.”
"Asked by a caller whether it was fair that transgender women were allowed to compete in women’s sports, Sir Keir said it was a matter “for the sporting bodies to decide for themselves”, acknowledging that there were “difficult questions”.
What's wrong with that answer?
To answer your question. Nothing really it's a fair answer. Course the penis question is disingenuous. What would you say to that. I think I might say I don't wish to answer, I mean I don't think women can but I would refer to Blair White as being a women an she has not had surgery where as Catlyn Jenner has I believe. So it's not a straight yes no but more balanced but because (Bell shaped curve definition) normally they don't then answer feels like a no but you don't want to offend You can agree that it's up to the governing body of a sport to decide who is allowed to participate and still think that Transwomen are women - the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I've no issue with a governing body making these decisions.
Gender is a complex issue and the question that Kier Starmer was asked was a simplistic one and designed as a 'gotcha'
This is what happened.
"Speaking to LBC’s Nick Ferrari during a phone-in, Sir Keir, the Labour leader, was asked multiple times whether or not “a woman can have a penis”.
“I don’t think that discussing this issue in this way helps anyone in the long run,” he said.
“What I want to see is a reform of the law as it is, but I am also an advocate of safe spaces for women and I want to have a discussion that is... Anybody who genuinely wants to find a way through this, I want to discuss that with. I do find that too many people – in my view – retreat or hold a position of which is intolerant of others.
“And that’s not picking on any individual at all, but I don’t like intolerance, I like open discussion.”
"Asked by a caller whether it was fair that transgender women were allowed to compete in women’s sports, Sir Keir said it was a matter “for the sporting bodies to decide for themselves”, acknowledging that there were “difficult questions”.
What's wrong with that answer?
Gecko1978 said:
chrispmartha said:
Precisely
You can agree that it's up to the governing body of a sport to decide who is allowed to participate and still think that Transwomen are women - the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I've no issue with a governing body making these decisions.
Gender is a complex issue and the question that Kier Starmer was asked was a simplistic one and designed as a 'gotcha'
This is what happened.
"Speaking to LBC’s Nick Ferrari during a phone-in, Sir Keir, the Labour leader, was asked multiple times whether or not “a woman can have a penis”.
“I don’t think that discussing this issue in this way helps anyone in the long run,” he said.
“What I want to see is a reform of the law as it is, but I am also an advocate of safe spaces for women and I want to have a discussion that is... Anybody who genuinely wants to find a way through this, I want to discuss that with. I do find that too many people – in my view – retreat or hold a position of which is intolerant of others.
“And that’s not picking on any individual at all, but I don’t like intolerance, I like open discussion.”
"Asked by a caller whether it was fair that transgender women were allowed to compete in women’s sports, Sir Keir said it was a matter “for the sporting bodies to decide for themselves”, acknowledging that there were “difficult questions”.
What's wrong with that answer?
To answer your question. Nothing really it's a fair answer. Course the penis question is disingenuous. What would you say to that. I think I might say I don't wish to answer, I mean I don't think women can but I would refer to Blair White as being a women an she has not had surgery where as Catlyn Jenner has I believe. So it's not a straight yes no but more balanced but because (Bell shaped curve definition) normally they don't then answer feels like a no but you don't want to offend You can agree that it's up to the governing body of a sport to decide who is allowed to participate and still think that Transwomen are women - the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I've no issue with a governing body making these decisions.
Gender is a complex issue and the question that Kier Starmer was asked was a simplistic one and designed as a 'gotcha'
This is what happened.
"Speaking to LBC’s Nick Ferrari during a phone-in, Sir Keir, the Labour leader, was asked multiple times whether or not “a woman can have a penis”.
“I don’t think that discussing this issue in this way helps anyone in the long run,” he said.
“What I want to see is a reform of the law as it is, but I am also an advocate of safe spaces for women and I want to have a discussion that is... Anybody who genuinely wants to find a way through this, I want to discuss that with. I do find that too many people – in my view – retreat or hold a position of which is intolerant of others.
“And that’s not picking on any individual at all, but I don’t like intolerance, I like open discussion.”
"Asked by a caller whether it was fair that transgender women were allowed to compete in women’s sports, Sir Keir said it was a matter “for the sporting bodies to decide for themselves”, acknowledging that there were “difficult questions”.
What's wrong with that answer?
But Starmers answer is no where near as bad as people saying ‘he doesn’t know what a woman is’
chrispmartha said:
But Starmers answer is no where near as bad as people saying ‘he doesn’t know what a woman is’
They mean "he neither said what I wanted him to say to agree with me, nor what I wanted him to say so I could jump on it as some kind of evidence he doesn't really think trans women are women"ZedLeg said:
Even using a word like normal is a minefield in discussions like this. The inference is that anything outside of your definition of normal is abnormal, which is of course a negative.
You did see I used the caveat bell shaped curve so it's not negative its outside of what is mostly observed. 100 cars in a car park 95 are black, gray, blue, 5 are red, white, yellow. So inside the curve dark colours outside light colours nothing negative just observationalchrispmartha said:
Sorry misread your post.
He was asked can a woman have a Penis.
Personally I would have just answered yes a Transwoman can’
So you've applied a definition.He was asked can a woman have a Penis.
Personally I would have just answered yes a Transwoman can’
I'd do the same.
Someone self identifying as a woman can certainly have a penis. In fact they would have tusks and a trunk. They could even be AI.
By the definition my doctor would use, probably not a functioning one, although I could be wrong about that.
It really is that simple.
Mind you, I thought the question was cervix.
Gecko1978 said:
ZedLeg said:
Even using a word like normal is a minefield in discussions like this. The inference is that anything outside of your definition of normal is abnormal, which is of course a negative.
You did see I used the caveat bell shaped curve so it's not negative its outside of what is mostly observed. 100 cars in a car park 95 are black, gray, blue, 5 are red, white, yellow. So inside the curve dark colours outside light colours nothing negative just observationalI'm a woke, liberal, lefty, and I think this is a sensible decision.
Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
ZedLeg said:
Gecko1978 said:
ZedLeg said:
Even using a word like normal is a minefield in discussions like this. The inference is that anything outside of your definition of normal is abnormal, which is of course a negative.
You did see I used the caveat bell shaped curve so it's not negative its outside of what is mostly observed. 100 cars in a car park 95 are black, gray, blue, 5 are red, white, yellow. So inside the curve dark colours outside light colours nothing negative just observationalI liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
Lord Marylebone said:
I'm a woke, liberal, lefty, and I think this is a sensible decision.
Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
Surely trans people should compete against other trans people.Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
XCP said:
Lord Marylebone said:
I'm a woke, liberal, lefty, and I think this is a sensible decision.
Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
Surely trans people should compete against other trans people.Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
How many Transgender athletes were there before this ban?
Gecko1978 said:
No worries at all buddy. This debate is much more fun when we don't go for the cheap laugh (gotcha) but it's a little harder then you have to be precise with words.
I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
Yes there is a negative.I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
That answer means a woman can't, which clashes with the belief that some hold that trans women are women.
Rufus Stone said:
Gecko1978 said:
No worries at all buddy. This debate is much more fun when we don't go for the cheap laugh (gotcha) but it's a little harder then you have to be precise with words.
I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
Yes there is a negative.I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
That answer means a woman can't, which clashes with the belief that some hold that trans women are women.
XCP said:
Lord Marylebone said:
I'm a woke, liberal, lefty, and I think this is a sensible decision.
Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
Surely trans people should compete against other trans people.Test after test has concluded that even after 1-2 years of hormone treatment, trans women still have a physical performance advantage over men (In running it was found to average 12% faster in longer races, even after treatment), and that can't be allowed to continue.
I fully appreciate this is not good news for trans women, as they are unable to compete against women, but due to hormone therapy, they will be at a physical disadvantage if competing against men, but it is at present, the best of a difficult situation.
chrispmartha said:
Rufus Stone said:
Gecko1978 said:
No worries at all buddy. This debate is much more fun when we don't go for the cheap laugh (gotcha) but it's a little harder then you have to be precise with words.
I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
Yes there is a negative.I liked Chrismatha response "yes a trans women can". It feels ok to say that as you are defining a positive without any negative
That answer means a woman can't, which clashes with the belief that some hold that trans women are women.
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