Before all the venues disappear...

Before all the venues disappear...

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Discussion

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Yesterday (12:03)
quotequote all
Some very odd arguments.

Donington is a race circuit yes, those facilities HAVE to be there or nobody would consider going and also part of their H&S charter I guess, Weston is a country house there is more than enough, food, loos, all you need. I do not want someone to spend millions on those as that means tickets will go up to pay for it, you do understand economics no? You either spend little and struggle on busy days and perhaps lose a few or you spend big to cope with big days and then have at idle for 350 days a year as Donington or any MSV venue does.

Club racing is for people who do it, very few people are interested in watching it, the proof is in the seeing. Both on bikes and cars, people will go and watch historics for more reasons, nostalgia, fun, but you are going to struggle to get similar numbers of people watching loads of one make races, unless they adore close racing and people banging into each other. Some series have that, and I will watch them but often find something better to do, sorry.

What helps? Variety, different sorts of cars, big grids, a good commentator who gives you info rather than simply sponsor checking to people that don't care or are even listening, a good comms guy will pull you in, most do not sorry.

I do not really understand your point, but you are clearly invested in it, so fair play to you, doesn't mean I have to like it, which is something you seem to misunderstand!

Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

Yesterday (12:59)
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
Some very odd arguments.

Donington is a race circuit yes, those facilities HAVE to be there or nobody would consider going and also part of their H&S charter I guess, Weston is a country house there is more than enough, food, loos, all you need. I do not want someone to spend millions on those as that means tickets will go up to pay for it, you do understand economics no? You either spend little and struggle on busy days and perhaps lose a few or you spend big to cope with big days and then have at idle for 350 days a year as Donington or any MSV venue does.

Club racing is for people who do it, very few people are interested in watching it, the proof is in the seeing. Both on bikes and cars, people will go and watch historics for more reasons, nostalgia, fun, but you are going to struggle to get similar numbers of people watching loads of one make races, unless they adore close racing and people banging into each other. Some series have that, and I will watch them but often find something better to do, sorry.

What helps? Variety, different sorts of cars, big grids, a good commentator who gives you info rather than simply sponsor checking to people that don't care or are even listening, a good comms guy will pull you in, most do not sorry.

I do not really understand your point, but you are clearly invested in it, so fair play to you, doesn't mean I have to like it, which is something you seem to misunderstand!
Not liking something is one thing spouting rubbish is something different.

You do realise that nearly all circuits are in use most days. What with track days, corporate days etc. Even Croft with its noise restrictions has both running and cycling events.

For someone accusing others of not understanding economics you still haven't explained how entry fees are greatly exaggerated. I would have thought someone with your understanding of economics would be able to explain that. Or is it yet another example of you spouting rubbish.

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Yesterday (15:55)
quotequote all
I am fully aware of how venues operate having lived near one for many years it eh past they probably make far more money doing these things that putting on race meetings.

Greatly exaggerated entry fees are just a thing drivers have to put up with, those fees come from all sorts of costs, from the MSUK, venue hire, that venue hire also adds cost to facilitate spectators, security, stewards, catering etc.

I have argued with you numerous times because we come at this from differing side of the gate, I do not give a toss about your side and you do not give a toss about mine, it is that simple, so I am not going to get into a protracted argument with someone who would argue until they blue in the face that white was black. it is not worth my time and frankly adds nothing to to the thread.

Suffice to say yes I find club racing boring, dull and uninteresting. And I think in a lot cases there is an argument for spectators with some kind of pass to be let in for free as they add very little value to the whole thing monetarily I would guess.

What is interesting is that on any given day anyone can watch a track day for nothing. How hard would it be to do the same for car races?

FredericRobinson

3,187 posts

219 months

Yesterday (16:19)
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
I am fully aware of how venues operate having lived near one for many years it eh past they probably make far more money doing these things that putting on race meetings.

Greatly exaggerated entry fees are just a thing drivers have to put up with, those fees come from all sorts of costs, from the MSUK, venue hire, that venue hire also adds cost to facilitate spectators, security, stewards, catering etc.

I have argued with you numerous times because we come at this from differing side of the gate, I do not give a toss about your side and you do not give a toss about mine, it is that simple, so I am not going to get into a protracted argument with someone who would argue until they blue in the face that white was black. it is not worth my time and frankly adds nothing to to the thread.

Suffice to say yes I find club racing boring, dull and uninteresting. And I think in a lot cases there is an argument for spectators with some kind of pass to be let in for free as they add very little value to the whole thing monetarily I would guess.

What is interesting is that on any given day anyone can watch a track day for nothing. How hard would it be to do the same for car races?
It wouldn’t be at all difficult for circuits to let people in for free, it just wouldn’t make financial sense

coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

Yesterday (16:25)
quotequote all
Luke - Your comment is akin to my saying I am not interested in football , so I object to paying for a ticket for a match , because entry should be free for people like me . Don't go , stay away but please stop implying those of us who enjoy it are being duped, or are easily pleased .

I have enjoyed club racing for decades , I've helped organise , marshalled and now I steward a bit. But most of all I go as a punter and I enjoy it hugely. It can be dire (so something to moan about it with my chums ) and it can be thrilling . I've seen F1 and WEC drivers at club events both before and after their career , and I have seen some fabulous machinery , like I did at CSCC opener at Silverstone last month.

I like drag racing , speed hillclimbs and much else too as I believe that live motorsport is infinitely better than watching it on TV.

Stop at home if it's not your thing - but at least respect the fact that , y'know, other views are available ?

Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

Yesterday (16:37)
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
I am fully aware of how venues operate having lived near one for many years it eh past they probably make far more money doing these things that putting on race meetings.

Greatly exaggerated entry fees are just a thing drivers have to put up with, those fees come from all sorts of costs, from the MSUK, venue hire, that venue hire also adds cost to facilitate spectators, security, stewards, catering etc.

I have argued with you numerous times because we come at this from differing side of the gate, I do not give a toss about your side and you do not give a toss about mine, it is that simple, so I am not going to get into a protracted argument with someone who would argue until they blue in the face that white was black. it is not worth my time and frankly adds nothing to to the thread.

Suffice to say yes I find club racing boring, dull and uninteresting. And I think in a lot cases there is an argument for spectators with some kind of pass to be let in for free as they add very little value to the whole thing monetarily I would guess.

What is interesting is that on any given day anyone can watch a track day for nothing. How hard would it be to do the same for car races?
Again you are so wide of the mark. I care a lot about spectators they are part of the whole picture.

It is you who disagrees with people and frankly add nothing to the debate. Several people on this thread and on other threads try to explain to you why your views don't actually match the reality of what is actually happening, but you continue in your blinkered and rather contradictory opinions.



pablo

17,444 posts

260 months

Yesterday (18:46)
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
I am fully aware of how venues operate having lived near one for many years it eh past they probably make far more money doing these things that putting on race meetings.

Greatly exaggerated entry fees are just a thing drivers have to put up with, those fees come from all sorts of costs, from the MSUK, venue hire, that venue hire also adds cost to facilitate spectators, security, stewards, catering etc.

I have argued with you numerous times because we come at this from differing side of the gate, I do not give a toss about your side and you do not give a toss about mine, it is that simple, so I am not going to get into a protracted argument with someone who would argue until they blue in the face that white was black. it is not worth my time and frankly adds nothing to to the thread.

Suffice to say yes I find club racing boring, dull and uninteresting. And I think in a lot cases [b]there is an argument for spectators with some kind of pass to be let in for free as they add very little value to the whole thing monetarily I would guess. [b/]

What is interesting is that on any given day anyone can watch a track day for nothing. How hard would it be to do the same for car races?
5000 spectators at £20 is £100,000. That’s a huge sum of money for a track like Combe.

On a track day, you have no idea how many cars will turn up, what cars will turn up, how long they will be there etc…. Watching the same 40 cars go round for an hour is ok, for a whole day?!…. No thanks.

As others have pointed out, motorsport has changed but you don’t like the changes. This is your problem, not mine, not the drivers, not the clubs, not the circuits, not the spectators….

You claim it’s mostly one make championships and it’s just not. It’s a nice day out and there is none of the aggravation you get at football or rugby.

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

Yesterday (21:04)
quotequote all
I do happily stop at home, i have no interest in watching club racing, it bores me to tears sorry,

And it is not akin to other sports as they are mostly tribal, football, rugby, even cricket are usually enhanced by locality or supporting a team, you are never going to get that with motorsport unless you follow certain drivers or teams.

it is the same old folk who criticise, every single time and that is because they see only what they want, as I do.

People take one word in a post and blow it out of all proportion it is what happens on threads like this, without taking any of the other stuff one posts.

My point about track days is valid, if they can run without charging why can a race meeting not? The track is used the same, pit access is allowed, there is little difference other than insurance I would imagine. Track days organisers make money from drivers, so tracks really make ANY money from fans going to clubby meetings? I doubt it much.

For venues to survive I would hope there become less race meetings and more track days, as these presumably help them make more money.

I can only comment on what I have seen in over 30 years watching, and club racing has long since been moved from my appetite. I very quickly realised there is far better out there. And believe me it has not changed that much, but I know I have long since grown out of thinking it was any good!

And drum if you care about spectators why are we charging them money to watch a load of amateurs troll round, as others have said in the Free days at Brands there were thousands there, do you seriously think a clubbie makes much more than a few hundred quid form charging folk to watch a clubby at Snetterton, Oulton or Cadwell? I doubt it.

I cna amateur golf, cricket, some football, swimming, tennis, motorcycle enduro, off road racing, loads of things for free, wo why not amateur motorsport at some venues, to me it just makes more sense.


Edited by LukeBrown66 on Thursday 23 March 21:10

andy97

4,568 posts

209 months

Yesterday (21:32)
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
My point about track days is valid, if they can run without charging why can a race meeting not? The track is used the same, pit access is allowed, there is little difference other than insurance I would imagine. Track days organisers make money from drivers, so tracks really make ANY money from fans going to clubby meetings? I doubt it much.

For venues to survive I would hope there become less race meetings and more track days, as these presumably help them make more money. ]
You claim to know about how tracks work, because you Iive near one!!!

What you clearly don’t realise is the concept of supply and demand, or indeed the concept of differential pricing.
The cost of hiring a circuit for a track day on a weekday will be far less than the cost of hiring it for a race day at a weekend. This is because the demand for midweek trackdays at any given circuit is not that great (ie little competition and plenty of days to go round) but the demand for race meetings on weekends is actually quite high, particularly when you take in to account the number of “noisy days” that circuits are allowed to run.
The number of spectators for a weekday track day, when most people are at work, and there is no actual competition, is quite small so circuits are quite happy to let a few people in for free. At weekends they may as well try and make a few quid to cover costs, without actually having to spend money on advertising.
I am sorry, but you really do not know much about how circuits are run at all.

FredericRobinson

3,187 posts

219 months

LukeBrown66 said:
I do happily stop at home, i have no interest in watching club racing, it bores me to tears sorry,

And it is not akin to other sports as they are mostly tribal, football, rugby, even cricket are usually enhanced by locality or supporting a team, you are never going to get that with motorsport unless you follow certain drivers or teams.

it is the same old folk who criticise, every single time and that is because they see only what they want, as I do.

People take one word in a post and blow it out of all proportion it is what happens on threads like this, without taking any of the other stuff one posts.

My point about track days is valid, if they can run without charging why can a race meeting not? The track is used the same, pit access is allowed, there is little difference other than insurance I would imagine. Track days organisers make money from drivers, so tracks really make ANY money from fans going to clubby meetings? I doubt it much.

For venues to survive I would hope there become less race meetings and more track days, as these presumably help them make more money.

I can only comment on what I have seen in over 30 years watching, and club racing has long since been moved from my appetite. I very quickly realised there is far better out there. And believe me it has not changed that much, but I know I have long since grown out of thinking it was any good!

And drum if you care about spectators why are we charging them money to watch a load of amateurs troll round, as others have said in the Free days at Brands there were thousands there, do you seriously think a clubbie makes much more than a few hundred quid form charging folk to watch a clubby at Snetterton, Oulton or Cadwell? I doubt it.

I cna amateur golf, cricket, some football, swimming, tennis, motorcycle enduro, off road racing, loads of things for free, wo why not amateur motorsport at some venues, to me it just makes more sense.


Edited by LukeBrown66 on Thursday 23 March 21:10
This routine of yours, repeated time and again on here, where you find a thread where people are discussing an aspect of motorsport they enjoy and proceed to argue that it is in fact rubbish, it’s tedious and deeply wierd, have you really no better was of occupying your time?
You might have grown out thinking club motorsport is worth watching, time to grow out of interest trolling.

pablo

17,444 posts

260 months

LukeBrown66 said:
I do happily stop at home, i have no interest in watching club racing, it bores me to tears sorry,

And it is not akin to other sports as they are mostly tribal, football, rugby, even cricket are usually enhanced by locality or supporting a team, you are never going to get that with motorsport unless you follow certain drivers or teams.

it is the same old folk who criticise, every single time and that is because they see only what they want, as I do.

People take one word in a post and blow it out of all proportion it is what happens on threads like this, without taking any of the other stuff one posts.

My point about track days is valid, if they can run without charging why can a race meeting not? The track is used the same, pit access is allowed, there is little difference other than insurance I would imagine. Track days organisers make money from drivers, so tracks really make ANY money from fans going to clubby meetings? I doubt it much.

For venues to survive I would hope there become less race meetings and more track days, as these presumably help them make more money.

I can only comment on what I have seen in over 30 years watching, and club racing has long since been moved from my appetite. I very quickly realised there is far better out there. And believe me it has not changed that much, but I know I have long since grown out of thinking it was any good!

And drum if you care about spectators why are we charging them money to watch a load of amateurs troll round, as others have said in the Free days at Brands there were thousands there, do you seriously think a clubbie makes much more than a few hundred quid form charging folk to watch a clubby at Snetterton, Oulton or Cadwell? I doubt it.

I cna amateur golf, cricket, some football, swimming, tennis, motorcycle enduro, off road racing, loads of things for free, wo why not amateur motorsport at some venues, to me it just makes more sense.

Edited by LukeBrown66 on Thursday 23 March 21:10
I’ve literally just shown you how Combe for example, make £100k per race day minimum charging idiots like me £20 for eight hours enjoyment.A track day brings in barely 15% of that knowing what Combe charge for midweek private hire…

Robmarriott

Original Poster:

2,516 posts

145 months

Guys :-/

ChevronB19

4,778 posts

150 months

coppice said:
There is a lot of regional variation in attendance, for reasons unconnected with proximity of high density populations. I get around a fair bit and my unscientific findings are(based primarily on CSCC, HSCC ,VSCC but also GT and other modern stuff )

Knockhill - small-ish but keen crowd
Croft - three men and a dog for most things except BTCC and Nostalgia . And Time Attack , if that is your thing - it isn't mine
Cadwell - reasonable number of keen regulars
Donington - like a bloody ghost town
Oulton Park - a very loyal and numerous bunch of locals , many of them even older than me
Mallory - not bad at all, and far better than Donington
Silverstone - I was amazed at the number for Pomeroy Trophy and CSCC the other week . I normally find it deserted except for big stuff
Brands - good friendly local crowd
Thruxton - hardcore fans only
Anglesey - more than I expected , mainly local ; very friendly

Goodwood - after Cadwell, my favourite. In a class of its own - pricey but wonderful . And big numbers obviously

Never been to Castle Combe or Lydden Hill , been once to Snetterton since my first trip as a kid in 1966. Won't rush back

Haven’t been for a while, but one of the biggest attractions with Mallory was the caff, basic but fantastic food!

Drumroll

3,434 posts

107 months

ChevronB19 said:
Haven’t been for a while, but one of the biggest attractions with Mallory was the caff, basic but fantastic food!
Oh yes, the famous Mallory Breakfast.

LukeBrown66

3,763 posts

33 months

OK someone keeps using Combe as an example, I was not talking about them, they have done the right things to make money.

But to you others, do you really think a track makes money from spectators from the average club meeting? (shut up about Combe I know the rhetoric) Prices have not gone up very much in comparison with other sports, it is still relatively cheap for the hours you are expected to stand around watching pace cars, recovery trucks etc at times.

This thread is about venues disappearing, hence my contributions. I know all about this as I follow short oval racing where scores of venues have disappeared for decades now as they can NOT do what race tracks have been able to and fund themselves with track days, they have to speculate to accumulate with markets, function rooms etc etc and that rarely works as short ovals are not usually in nice areas. plus a lot of venues are in inner cities were and is valuable and councils prefer housing to be built so are easily bullied into approving it in a way.

My argument here is that why do circuits charge spectators to get in to club meetings, that is all. All I get in response is vitriol about me, what I post that I do not understand. And sarcastic tosh from people who are very superior about what they say. Fine, but I am a customer, I used to go and I do not, I am not in the minority, what are you so called in the know going to do about getting people back to help your beloved venues stay afloat?

Someone says circuits HAVE to charge or they make no money, do you seriously expect anyone to believe that at the handful of clubbies I have been to in recent years the track made ANY money, I could count the people there on about two pairs of hands. Most of them were probably MSV season ticket holders lol!

Some venues make an effort obviously to pull in punters. And some events attract fans like some of the stuff JP is doing. But I am sure there are countless events where tracks do not make much of any profit from attendance.


coppice

7,847 posts

131 months

As much enjoyed by my late friend , and friend of club racing , Simon Arron. It is weird now to think I have watched Aurora F1, F 5000, F 2 and F3 at Mallory , and even Stirling Moss in BTCC at Mallory . I suspect the BTCC crew would get an attack of the vapours if a return were ever mooted.