Private schools, times a changing?

Private schools, times a changing?

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NDA

20,242 posts

212 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
okgo said:
For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention?
Both of mine went to private schools and I'd do the same again. Despite them being told to 'not even bother' applying to Oxford or Cambridge as there was such prejudice against public schools.

BlackWidow13

2,933 posts

42 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
okgo said:
For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention? And for those that went themselves, if you have kids, or when your kids are of that age, will you look to send them?
Yes to both questions.

Main reasons: in London the free schools that produce high numbers of Oxbridge/RG Uni entrants are few and far between. They exist, but it is a mistake to think they are commonplace. Despite that, school is more than just Uni prep - most fee paying schools will inculcate a sense of confidence (call it privilege or arrogance if you prefer; neither is completely unfair) which will serve your child well in life no matter what they do.

At the other end of it Oxbridge entrance requirements are changing. No doubt about this. I’ve heard from friends that Winchester has had lower levels of success recently than the local sixth form college. A friend’s son with A*s at A level who was earmarked by his school (one of the top three boys’ fee paying schools in London) for Oxbridge didn’t get an interview. He wasn’t alone in this at his school. The consequence of this is that a lot of *very* academically talented kids are ending up at places like St Andrew’s, Durham and so on. I can see both sides of the argument on this, but I haven’t truly decided where I land on it.

Beyond Uni, we recruit mostly from Oxbridge. We have a limited number of interview slots due to our own manpower resources. For a few years we’ve been at the point where a first won’t guarantee you an interview. This is partly due to having more Oxbridge first applicants than interview slots, partly due to grade inflation and partly due to our relative popularity. Whereas we should be spoiled for choice, I’d say the overall standard of our applicants assessed by the yardsticks we have used year in, year out, is slightly lower now than it was when we weren’t overrun by Oxbridge first applicants.

GT03ROB

12,243 posts

208 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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I went to a comp, my ex-wife private. She decided our son should go private. So he did from the age of 4 until Uni. Decent (& expensive) ones in Berkshire. He wasn't going to set the world on fire with his exam results but they were decent enough He got into Durham Uni. Did the education make a difference to what university he ended up at...probably. Was it money well spent... I think it's impossible to say. I asked him once if he felt it was money well spent or would he rather have the cash, even he wasn't sure, but leaned towards the cash.

What I do know is he had a good environment in which to learn which provided a very well rounded & balanced experience. It produced kids that were confident without being arrogant or entitled.


derek.j said:
I went to state school and have no regrets but what I have noticed about people I’ve met who went to private school is that there not very “ street wise “
This is interesting. It may well depend on what you consider street wise to be. Some months back my son & his girlfriend were over to stay for the weekend. Wife's son was there with a couple of his mates, all products of a comp education in the local town & similar age to my son. They all got into discussions over various things. Wifes son & mates came over as naive little kids & utterly unstreetwise while they were trying to be seen as streetwise. It was quite amusing to watch. My son is in the plod, he was just laughing at them, as he said we see these all the time trying to be clever. I don't think education is a measure of how streetwise people can/will be. That comes from other sources.

Julietbravo

212 posts

77 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
NDA said:
okgo said:
For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention?
Both of mine went to private schools and I'd do the same again. Despite them being told to 'not even bother' applying to Oxford or Cambridge as there was such prejudice against public schools.
Both of mine went, and neither really exploited the opportunities available to them - they are not doctors or dentists. But, they are both utterly charming, at ease in any social situation, not intimidated by status or power and will hold their own in a tactful way against anyone. They also don't see race or gender and have a really tolerant and liberal world view due to the mix of pupils. I know I can leave them in a room with any of my friends, neighbours or work colleagues and they will engage and add value to a conversation. They also have a higher baseline as to what the minimum standard of living they want to achieve is and I don't think they will ever not achieve.

Mixing in that environment made them like this; I would do it again tomorrow.

BT Summers

702 posts

48 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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Julietbravo said:
NDA said:
okgo said:
For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention?
Both of mine went to private schools and I'd do the same again. Despite them being told to 'not even bother' applying to Oxford or Cambridge as there was such prejudice against public schools.
Both of mine went, and neither really exploited the opportunities available to them - they are not doctors or dentists. But, they are both utterly charming, at ease in any social situation, not intimidated by status or power and will hold their own in a tactful way against anyone. They also don't see race or gender and have a really tolerant and liberal world view due to the mix of pupils. I know I can leave them in a room with any of my friends, neighbours or work colleagues and they will engage and add value to a conversation. They also have a higher baseline as to what the minimum standard of living they want to achieve is and I don't think they will ever not achieve.

Mixing in that environment made them like this; I would do it again tomorrow.
This is also my experience, you could have been writing about my step - daughter although I don't know if the end results you describe are an exclusive product of the private school system, perhaps so.

She speaks very well, is confident, competitive, focused and has achieved quite a lot, youngest director of a major London company on a 6 figure salary and 30 staff reporting to her and has just started a new PR company on her own with US backing.

Would she be a high achiever if she had not been to a private school which gave individual attention and inspired confidence and a competitive spirit, perhaps not.




NDA

20,242 posts

212 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
Julietbravo said:
NDA said:
okgo said:
For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention?
Both of mine went to private schools and I'd do the same again. Despite them being told to 'not even bother' applying to Oxford or Cambridge as there was such prejudice against public schools.
Both of mine went, and neither really exploited the opportunities available to them - they are not doctors or dentists. But, they are both utterly charming, at ease in any social situation, not intimidated by status or power and will hold their own in a tactful way against anyone. They also don't see race or gender and have a really tolerant and liberal world view due to the mix of pupils. I know I can leave them in a room with any of my friends, neighbours or work colleagues and they will engage and add value to a conversation. They also have a higher baseline as to what the minimum standard of living they want to achieve is and I don't think they will ever not achieve.

Mixing in that environment made them like this; I would do it again tomorrow.
Yep - that's pretty much the same with mine.

BabySharkDooDooDooDooDooDoo

15,043 posts

156 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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Our kids go private , funded mostly by my parents as it’s something we could never afford.

Pros

Small class sizes

Teachers are generally good and give a st because they’re in a nice job

Majority of kids are pleasant (although there are some entitled sts)

Good sports facilities on site

Good mix of subjects that exposes them to languages and science at a young age

Variety of sports (rugby, football, hockey, netball, cricket, rounders, basketball)

Mix of kids from varied cultures and backgrounds

The children are encouraged to help each other out, especially the younger years which creates quite a nice family spirit



Cons

Lots of dick swinging from parents. It honestly sounds like a flight of Chinooks when the HR managers and finance directors start swinging it about.

Lots of dick sucking from parents hoping that having their toes hanging out of the teacher’s arse will help their kids. It sometimes works.

Children are somewhat shielded from the dregs of society - good but also leaves them a little naive to the nastiness out there

There is a lot of favouritism and the same kids will constantly get awards despite their “achievements” being nothing special

Expectations of the children can be too high, especially at the younger ages of primary school when there’s a huge difference between the eldest and youngest in the year group.





If it was our money, I’d probably use it to move closer to a decent state school though. However my parents chose to create the fund for a private education so that’s what it’s used for.



Bathroom_Security

3,092 posts

104 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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I was privately educated my whole life and went to boarding school

I am now a network engineer so a total failure by expectations I think?

Total waste of time, I had no intention of working while I was at school so state would have been just fine.

I think for a child that is intelligent maybe it'll provide an edge through smaller classes, but I think the main benefit of private education is connections

I had plenty of friends with large family businesses I know would have sorted me out with a job if needed (and actually did), I am not really that way inclined and probably explains why I ended up an engineer of sorts.

I look at people like Boris Johnson and chums he went to school with and that's the sort of person, well connected through education, that the upper crust of private education churns out and that's what its about really.

I wont privately educate my kids (if and when I have them) although could comfortably afford to do so.

okgo

Original Poster:

35,253 posts

185 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
Interesting stuff re confidence. I think some of this can be learned also, and for boys even being in a sports club can help with confidence and being able to speak to people from all manner of backgrounds as you have a common leveller. If you're good at a sport then that makes life very easy in that regard, IMO. But I can see the advantage of that being a daily thing and of course if you can't hang your hat on something such as sport then it could be more difficult without a school that can help in this regard.

Re streetwise, I think this can again be learned, I'm from rural hampshire and haven't been mugged in Brixton yet, and by virtue of my kids growing up around that sort of area I think that'll just be par for the course. But I know what you mean, I've a few mates who live in Teddington and the kids round there try and make themselves sound more 'london gang' than the actual ones that are in London gangs, and of course go home to a nice house at the end of the day hehe

One thing that I felt never happened in any meaningful way (it may be because I paid zero attention to anything mind you) was advice on careers, what existed, how you might end up in x or y. It was very binary and if you'd listened to the careers advice of my school there were about 5 jobs you could do in the whole country, fireman, doctor, policeman, lawyer etc - it took me years of just trying loads of jobs to sort of settle on something and make a go of it, I feel that is one thing I'd like to think this might help with.

I think it's possible I've not considered the school years as anything much beyond prep for going to a decent uni, which is clearly pretty silly, which is why I've always thought what is the point of doing all that only to go to a Uni that anyone could get into, to then get a job that anyone could get. Again this shaped from my own failings no doubt.

jhonn

1,457 posts

136 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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At her request, our middle daughter attended a private boarding school for a couple of years prior to her Higher grade exams. It was a good school with a broad curriculum of topics, events and activities; based on her attendance she went on to university and obtained a First Class Degree.

I believe it also helped in her confidence and gave her a network of like-minded, motivated friends and contacts whom she is still in touch with.

So...despite being expensive (about £3k/quarter as I recall), as I see her make her way through life I think it was worth it. She also thinks this, and has said so a few times. She's convinced that she wouldn't have achieved if she'd stayed where she was.

A funny aside... I received a quarterly bill from the school, opened the envelope and was wryly evaluating whether we could easily cover it that month, would we have to make any economies or sacrifices, etc. My daughter saw this and asked what I was looking at - when I told her it was her fees, she said, 'Don't worry Dad, when I'm finished education, I'm going to get a really good job that pays well, well enough that when the time comes we can afford to put you in a really good home'. Ha! I thought to myself, she is a smart girl - money well spent!

hyphen

26,262 posts

77 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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jhonn said:
..., she said, 'Don't worry Dad, when I'm finished education, I'm going to get a really good job that pays well, well enough that when the time comes we can afford to put you in a really good home'. Ha! I thought to myself, she is a smart girl - money well spent!
biggrin

RizzoTheRat

23,764 posts

179 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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Depends a lot on how good your local schools are. I went to a private school up to 16 and then to a local ex-grammar for 6th form. There were loads of people there I knew from my primary school who'd gone on the local comprehensive, and they were all doing arts/humanities subject, none of them were doing maths or science. It's probably fair to conclude that if I'd gone to the local comp I may well not have gone on to do maths, physics, chemistry at A-level and an engineering degree as I wouldn't have done so well at those subjects at GCSE.

My wife used to teach maths at a 6th form college and reckoned they got quite a few kids from private schools who struggled at A-level, thier view being that kids who went private generally got better grades for a given level of ability than those who didn't. This could cause some to struggle later, but it also opens up some opportunities to them.

vikingaero

8,591 posts

156 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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I went to private school and the biggest plus was the fantastic range of academic and non-academic opportunities. I did everything from field trips in Europe/Asia/South America, VSU, I can shoot, I can sail, climb, navigate/orientate etc etc.

The 2 Vikingettes went/one still goes to a the No.1 Grammar School in town and are getting on very well.

For me the biggest difference was that friendships were harder at private school - you could live 40 mins east of school and your friend lives 1 hour west of school, whereas the Vikingettes have friends that live locally.

Stick Legs

3,555 posts

152 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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Before I start nothing here is meant to criticise anyone else's choices. I am stating my thought process in the hope it may help anyone undecided.
Parenting is emotive and I would hate to think what I say or feel about this would be deemed to come across as putting down anyone else.
The reason for this caveat is I am speaking as I find and reporting the facts as I see them:


I went and sent my eldest to my former school from the start because it just seemed natural to.

She had some sensory issues which became more apparent as she got older and was not thriving. My wife had her assessed and it turns out she does see the world slightly differently. On presenting this information to the school were told they did not intend to make any allowance and that these 'pseudo issues' work themselves out!

My wife and were lucky to have friend who's children went through our local state primary who had a brilliant SENCO and we moved her there.
The youngest started school the year after this move, at the same school my eldest now was at.
Both my children have stayed in the state system and I have no intention of removing them regardless of my means.
Luckily where we are classes are small and the village schools are nice. It may be a different issue in other locales.

Points pertinent to me are:

1) When I went through school the plan appeared to be to polish turds and help you excel at what you were good at. If you had 2 left feet then you could skip games for extra time in the computer lab. If you were passing but not likely to relish being developed further in your core subjects but a gifted sportsman then why push Latin on you when you could to extra coaching.
Now it seems obsessed with hammering square pegs into round holes to get a product. It's great you are top set for maths, lets see if we cant get on a team for sports as well (ignoring that it makes you miserable) or lets make you learn an instrument as well (ignoring that you have no latent talent for it and now feel like you have failed at something).

2) I genuinely believe that children from fee paying schools will have to jump a higher bar to get into top universities or into careers such as medicine.

3) If you banned fee paying schools tomorrow the same children would still end up in the top jobs as parents who think education is important enough to pay for will also help at home and encourage study, analytical thought and push their children on. We are devoting more time and money to extracurricular learning than sub contracting parenting out to a school.

4) If you gave me all the money in a lump sum that their education would cost at a fee paying school I think it would be of more benefit to help them buy a house with it than to spend it on nice school grounds and high level sports facilities.



BlackWidow13

2,933 posts

42 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
quotequote all
okgo said:
I think it's possible I've not considered the school years as anything much beyond prep for going to a decent uni, which is clearly pretty silly, which is why I've always thought what is the point of doing all that only to go to a Uni that anyone could get into, to then get a job that anyone could get. Again this shaped from my own failings no doubt.
One more thing to throw in the pot: it’s almost impossible to predict your kids’ path. For school, both primary and secondary, my firm view is find the one where your child is happiest. For primary we went for the local state primary: good reputation, no hot housing, a bit of exposure to a broader demographic than at the local fee paying prep schools, and their school friends were all very local. They loved it.

Come secondary school time (beware that free primary plus fee paying secondary = tutoring for the entrance exams) visiting a few and listening to the Head and department heads gives a ten year a surprisingly good feel for what they like - and don’t like. Ours ended up at different secondaries which at times was a ball ache but was without doubt best for them.

It is very hard for any child to thrive at a school where they aren’t happy. By extension, if they turn out not to be academic, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, you and they have to ask at some point whether Uni is going to be the right option for them. Which, if their schooling has been pre-Uni prep, can be difficult to address objectively on both sides.

Edited by BlackWidow13 on Tuesday 26th October 11:31

aparna

1,156 posts

24 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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This decision is looming for me. I have the disposable cash and plan to spend it, but I'm going in blind, as none of my family went to private school. Something like 80% of my uni peers went to private school, and I never quite worked out, how much of that confidence and privilege was directly attributable to private school, and how much is simply growing up in a rich household.

Overall I got the feeling my dad's job title was more important to my status, than the school I went to.

I do wonder if I could personally spend the money more effectively without overly burdening myself as project manager. Sports classes, music lessons, holidays etc. Maybe there is an economies of scale that I can't compete with. Private will probably involve more taxiing so perhaps it's a wash. In terms of a better class of kid and networking, not sure that matters so much at primary? I'm fortunate in that the local primary is pretty decent and relatively small class sizes, so we do have a better set of choices.

No idea, basically.

Edited by aparna on Tuesday 26th October 11:59

PhilboSE

3,565 posts

213 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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I was state educated until I was lucky enough to get a full scholarship to a top-10 private school (no way it would have happened otherwise). I've sent 3 kids to private school.

State vs private, there are good and bad examples of both. When people hear "public schools" they often think Eton/Harrow, toffs with winged collars, elitism, fagging and a whole bunch of other stereotypes. There are thousands of public/private schools in the country and many of them just offer an alternative to the state system: pay your money, get smaller class sizes, fewer disruptive pupils, on balance better teachers, better facilities etc. They don't cater to geniuses and don't send all their pupils to Oxbridge, Russell Group or even Uni. They just offer a "better" option than local state schools. Equally you do get public schools that are extremely academic, focused on top Uni entries, with excellent facilities. Some schools are magnets for gentry and children of third generation politicians, some appeal to white collar high earners. There are so many different ones.

Equally, same with state schools. Some are amazing, brand new facilities dripping with technology with taxpayer money thrown at them the likes of which the typical private school could only dream of. Some are sinkholes for the dregs of society.

If you are lucky enough to live within the catchment area of a good state school (which will probably be selective in some way) then it's a good choice. Unfortunately these are quite in the minority and prices of houses within the catchment area are often increased by a similar amount to the cost of private school fees!

In the main though I believe you get a better education in private schools, simply due to better facilities, and better pupil:teacher ratio, and the selective nature - either selective on ability or selective on ability to pay. Either way, more pupils and parents are invested in the best educational outcome for their children at private schools than at state, which engenders a more productive learning environment.

In terms of Oxbridge (because the OP specifically mentioned it), a private education will actually hamper your application because these institutions are now under pressure to demonstrate equality. Which means equality in terms of numbers of entrants from state : private in the same % as are educated state : private (about 93%:7%). Which is a nonsense because (for whatever reason) the best applicants will come disproportionately from the private sector, because of the better education they've received (and possibly [gasp] because they might actually be more intelligent as a consequence of unwitting eugenics).

If you aspire for your children to go to Oxbridge (and there are good reasons) then the best route is privately educated to GCSE then go to a state sixth form. They will benefit from positive discrimination on their UCAS form to boost the University state intake numbers. I have one child at Oxford, one child currently applying to Cambridge and although he is an excellent candidate, in reality the numbers are against him purely based on his school background.

Bathroom_Security said:
(snip) but I think the main benefit of private education is connections

I look at people like Boris Johnson and chums he went to school with and that's the sort of person, well connected through education, that the upper crust of private education churns out and that's what its about really.
Sorry but this is complete bks for the vast majority of pupils. "The old school tie" simply just doesn't exist except for a tiny bubble of elitist people like your third generation politicians or landed gentry, none of whom live in the real world anyway. Private school "connections" just don't exist in my experience, even if I bumped into someone from my old school it wouldn't influence me or colour my judgement of them any way whatsoever. Boris and his Eton chums are just the tiny minority totally atypical stereotype that the popular press like to bandy around as justifications for anti-elitism. They just form a non-representative proportion of the Conservative party in the same way that career trade unionists who have never worked a day in their life form a disproportionate proportion of the Labour party.

various people said:
streetwise
This I think has a lot more to do with the parenting and upbringing than the school. When I got into my private secondary school, on the first day my mother said, here's your train ticket, off you go. Aged 11 I cycled to the station, got on the correct train and off at the correct station, and then had no idea how to get to the school. Luckily I decided that if I hung around long enough I'd recognise some boys with the same blazer and follow them. Next 7 years were spent using the train network (I can still recite all the stations on most of the train lines on the Southern network), then cycling then ultimately driving to school. In between I was with my mates, going to pubs and gigs and getting ourselves around the country to do so. We had real independence and with it came a degree of awareness (wouldn't call it "streetwise", but we knew how to avoid getting into trouble).

By contrast my children have had a much more sheltered experience. From where we used to live, public transport wasn't really an option so they have been driven to school until 3 years ago when we moved within walking distance. Consequently they haven't developed much independence and my oldest daughter (the one at Oxford) is still a bit of a liability on the train network with an amazing inability to catch the correct train. Her friends are pretty similar, listening to them I shake my head at their general lack of awareness. In that degree I'm actually quite annoyed that I've let this situation arise for my kids and that they are so very different from me at the same age, as I put this down to environment and parenting far more than schooling.

Magnum 475

3,181 posts

119 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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The answer is, as always, "It depends"

Firstly, on what you have available in the local area. We have two village primary schools in the area, one in our village, and one about 5 miles away. Neither are particularly good, both run 'merged classes' - e.g. from reception to year 6 there are just 4 class groups, in some cases 40 kids of mixed ages. We chose to go further and private for our kids, they're in a very good prep school now. They're both bright, and the village schools simply wouldn't have given them the same level of development. The largest class in the prep school is 10 kids, and all classes have full-time teacher plus at least one TA. Had we had a top-performing state primary available, then we might well have taken a different route.

Senior level is harder. A few years ago I'd have said 'Independent school, no question'. But now there's massive political pressure to prioritise kids from non-independent schools at top Universities (and I thought we had a Tory Government). So maybe we have to look to a decent state Grammar School for Senior education when the kids are old enough. There's one in our area with a bus from nearby, so it may be an option...

theguvernor15

859 posts

90 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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I went to both a state school (grammar, as i passed the 11+) & after a couple of years there, i went private.

The academic side of things, the grammar was absolutely miles ahead (IMO), the grammar also had far better facilities, but, there was also a lot more kids there. (Circa 30 a class).
I didn't really like school & therefore didn't get on at the Grammar school so moved schools (it was also an hour commute almost each way).

The class sizes at private school were about half the size, education wise, i didn't struggle, but we also didn't get any 'special treatment'.

A lot of the kids at the private school were from a variety of ethnicities, countries & back rounds, from Scandanavia to Australia, USA to China.
Many of them from Asia/Europe, whilst the British kids were a mix of everyone. (From parents with kids in the forces, to kids who's parents worked at the school, to well off people).

At the time when i was there, there was a whole host of different after school clubs/cadets etc. available, which the local grammar/comps didn't offer.
However, i've just viewed a couple of the local academies/Grammars as my lad has just passed his 11+ & the facilities & extra-curricular clubs on offer are miles ahead than when i was at school.

I have friends from both my Grammar & private schools 20 years after leaving, as well as friends from the local comps & i can't say either education 'created' a different type of person, or offered better opportunities, life is entirely what you want to make it.

I have friends who left Uni with degrees who are managing bars/nightclubs to people who left school without any qualifications & ended up with good businesses.

Stick Legs

3,555 posts

152 months

Tuesday 26th October 2021
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PhilboSE said:
various people said:
streetwise
I have some friends that my state educated wife would never have hung around with because her streetwise spidey senses would have steered her clear.
In the main my naivety has been useful in that it has made me less judgmental rather than more so, albeit from a snobby starting point of 'everyone else', which meant in the main I took people on their merit rather than based on where they lived etc. which may have immediately discounted them in some peoples eyes.

Best advice I ever got, and I will impart to my children is just because you share a drink with someone does not mean you want them in your house.
Be open minded to people's background etc, be friendly, be polite, but keep boundaries.